Gun Control, Carolina-Style

Special to FreeRepublic ^ | 20 April 2007 | John Armor (Congressman Billybob)

[Osage Orange]

I'd have to say anytime the perp is "disengaged" and the intended "victim" is alive....is a "happy ending".

Despite the job or legal consequences.

Wouldn't you?

[Star Traveler]

Well, I guess you would have to consider the trade-offs. Like, for instance, if you’re at work and someone comes in and threatens everyone with a gun. There’s a stand-off and after a few hours or whatever, he’s finally taken into custody. (it’s a scenario that I’ve read about several times, in Portland). Now, people waited and then after it was over, everyone goes back to work.

But, let’s say you’ve got a gun, you take it out and shoot the guy, instead. Now, he’s down (who knows..., maybe dead) and he’s taken out of there. The next thing you know, you’re out of a job. Well, I guess the tradeoff is would you rather have kept the job and just waited — or shot him and lose the job. That’s the kind of situation that I’m talking about.

Again, it’s not in areas where one is allowed to carry a concealed weapon. That’s not the problem. The problem is when you carry it on a job where they are gong to fire you. Or you carry on school grounds where they will arrest you. Or you carry it on a university that bans it and they will suspend you. Those are the areas that I was discussing.

So, the question would be, is it worth becoming a felon, carrying on school grounds? Is it worth being suspended from the university for having it on campus? Is it worth losing the job for having it at work?

And if the person says yes to felony, suspension, lost job — then you’ve already made up your mind...

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Osage Orange]

How many do you want? Do a search. Just do one in your own state.

Where the clerk, server, owner, worker, laborer...etc..etc...defended themselves.

Geesh....a "good ending" is if you are STILL ALIVE..! Losing a job, a position, or being adjudicated is nothing.

And that is my point.

Like I said......Here's what you originally wrote: "But, in all the cases where we’ve heard about these kinds of shootings, it hasn’t come out with a “good ending” where someone decided that they were not going to obey the ban."

IMHO, A good ending is breathing at the end.....

FWIW-

[Osage Orange]

And if the person says yes to felony, suspension, lost job — then you’ve already made up your mind...

In nearly all cases...I'd rather be alive....

And knowing I stopped some stealing, lying, robbing, murdering, rapist, loser oxygen pirate.

Are you really saying you'd be afraid of a felony or a little suspension...opposed to being dead?

Maybe you have a different mind-set than I.

[Star Traveler]

You said — “How many do you want? Do a search. Just do one in your own state.
Where the clerk, server, owner, worker, laborer...etc..etc...defended themselves.”

In these cases that I’ve read and/or seen on TV or radio (and I do keep up on the news, ya know...), where someone has defended themselves from a robbery (like maybe a liquor store owner, or a night clerk somewhere, or whatever), of an assault or a burglary or any number of violent crimes against individuals — these have all been okay and legal to do (i.e., in “areas” that were not “gun-free zones”). There wasn’t an issue or a problem.

I’m not looking for examples of things like this in areas where there has never been any question of concealed weapons. Not at all. I’m looking *specifically* at the problem that one gets into when they do so in the *prohibited* areas. The many examples that you’re referring to are abundantly seen in the “legal” areas. That’s not the issue that I’m raising.

So, you see..., I wasn’t talking about those. Those are not the problem areas.

.

Then — “Geesh....a “good ending” is if you are STILL ALIVE..! Losing a job, a position, or being adjudicated is nothing.”

Again, it’s a problem and not a good ending when you lose a job, or you’ve got a felony or you’ve ended up in court and have to spend thousands of dollars. And again, I am talking about those gun-free zones — like on school grounds, like at a university where they are banned, like at a job where the employer will fire you. Those are the areas where I’m talking about.

And so, I said that if someone goes ahead and decides to break the law (end up with a record which bans you from owning guns, for one thing) and/or take the penalty (either lost job, or dismissal from university) and all those sorts of things — then they are not going to end up with good endings.

Besides, what I’ve heard is that gun owners are “law abiding” and if that is so — then the gun owners are not going to be carrying concealed weapons in places where it’s not allowed.

Either you are going to be legal or you’re illegal (and/or penalties...). You can’t call gun owners the best around and obey the laws better than anyone else — and then advocate *breaking the laws* when carrying your gun...

.

Finally — “IMHO, A good ending is breathing at the end.....”

Well, there are more considerations than just that. You can be breathing and go lose your job and go bankrupt — or — you can be breathing and still have job and still carry your gun in “legal areas” (and not violate the laws or policies.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Star Traveler]

You said — “In nearly all cases...I’d rather be alive....”

But, here is where the odds are not as you may be indicating. In these *prohibited* areas for concealed weapons, what is *more guaranteed* than being killed — is getting the penalty for violating the law and/or policy.

In the example that I gave, for several stories in Portland. There have been gunman that have come into business areas and have held people hostage for a while. And in every case that I’ve read about locally, no one has been killed. So, it’s not an *automatic given* that you are going to be killed. In fact, it’s more like being hit by lightning, very rare, if at all.

HOWEVER, I can give you something that *will happen* in these situations about 100% of the time — just about without fail. If you are carrying on school grounds, and you pull it out, you’re going to get prosecuted. If you are carrying a concealed weapon on university grounds where they are prohibited, and you confront someone with it, you are going to suffer some kind of penalty (I’ve heard anywhere from temporary suspension to permanent banning from the university to being arrested [like the student in Colorado this last week]). And if you are doing it at a job where they’ve set the policy to be that or be fired, and you pull it out to stop someone — then you are going to lose your job.

And in all those cases, it’s extremely rare, out of all those people, and situations and locations and over the years — that anyone dies (in those “no concealed weapons” areas). But — it’s about 100% certain, that you *will suffer the penalties* — every single time, without exception — if you pull out a weapon in a “no-concealed-weapons area”.

Thus, killing — rare. Penalties — about 100% of the time.

If these were odds in Las Vegas, I know what one I would bet on...

.

You said — “And knowing I stopped some stealing, lying, robbing, murdering, rapist, loser oxygen pirate.”

Hey..., you can stop them in the areas where you can carry. Why subject yourself to a 100% guarantee of penalty in the “no carry zones” — when all you have to do is get the guy (or the “perp”) in a legal area? Doesn’t make sense to me...

.

“Are you really saying you’d be afraid of a felony or a little suspension...opposed to being dead?”

Well..., it’s simple, the odds of dying are as rare as a lightning strike on me, walking down the street. The odds of me getting a penalty are 100% of I pull out a gun in a gun-free zone. Odds — rare vs. 100%. I take the “rare”....

.

Finally — “Maybe you have a different mind-set than I.”

Well, I think you see it, as I’ve expressed it. It’s simply as a gun owner — be law-abiding and follow the rules and guidelines — nothing very complex here...

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Osage Orange]

Understand your first point/statement.

Oh man...you've reduced me to taking the it.."depends on what you think a problem is" tact. Ha!

But I will hold to..."I'D RATHER BE ALIVE, THAN DEAD". And ILLEGAL AND ALIVE FOR MY FAMILY, THAN DEAD"

I will concede you don't think as I. Fair enough....we will have to agree to disagree what we happen to think a good ending is...We obviously differ.

You can choose what you choose to to....And I will choose what I will choose.

It's also become evident, I believe you do NOT own a gun. And that speaks to me...more than your typed words.

It's a been a pleasure having some back-and-worth, erotern with you.....

FWIW-

[Osage Orange]

You can live in "your" world.......

I will live in mine.

Fair enough?

Good luck to you....

P.S. Still don't truly think you really own a gun. Nor truly understand the ramifications of "No-Gun Zones".

FWIW-

[2ndDivisionVet]

I understood the Sullivan Act to really be for the purpose of disarming blacks so that they couldn’t fight back against Tammany Hall and the rest of the crooked democrat machine in New York.

[Star Traveler]

Well, without getting into a point for point, let’s just say these two things...

(1) Just be law-abiding as a gun owner

(2) And, work to change policies or laws for the good of everyone, for their safety and gun ownership.

That’s really all...

Side note — I don’t have one now. I’m in Texas and Oklahoma, but from Oregon (still have stuff there). I will probably move my stuff from Oregon to Oklahoma by next year, I think, and then in Oklahoma I’ll be getting a permit. Right now, I’m just all over the place and I can’t get that together. I have had one before.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Osage Orange]

IOW's.........you own no guns.

Correct?

[Star Traveler]

not now, did and will...

[Osage Orange]

Noted...........

Thanks-

[El Gato]

I understood the Sullivan Act to really be for the purpose of disarming blacks so that they couldn’t fight back against Tammany Hall and the rest of the crooked democrat machine in New York.

The large migrations of blacks, from both the southern US and the Caribbean, did not take place until after passage of the Sullivan Act. It was aimed at new immigrants, such as Italians, Irish, Southern and Eastern Europeans, Russian and Polish Jews, and so forth.

[2ndDivisionVet]

Thanks for the correction, I recalled the story incorrectly, Oldtimer’s Disease and all that....

[dirtbiker]

This is the way the whole country was, when I was born (and I’m not yet 50 years old). So sad....

Same here in western VA.

When I was in High School, there were enough guns in the vehicles to field a small army, and NO SCHOOL SHOOTINGS!

Today, if a student forgot to remove his rifle Monday after a weekend hunting trip, he would be expelled. (One school near me tried to expel a grade-schooler for having a WATER PISTOL in his backpack. Fortunately, the principal had enough sense and "intestinal fortitude" to tell all to "STFU and forget about it-it's a WATER PISTOL!!!"

"Zero Tolerance means Zero Reasoning!"

[NonLinear]

In these cases that I’ve read and/or seen on TV or radio (and I do keep up on the news, ya know...)...

I just noticed where you get your news. It is quite likely that you have missed, these stories, many with happy endings, some with the ending you envision...

Your point about willfully violating the "no carry" laws is well taken though. Of my 18,000 days wandering this planet, 17,998 of them have been completely free of threats by armed bad guys, and all 18,000 have been free of deranged mass murderers. Of those other two days, it was nice to be packing on one of them and to have a weapon out in the car on the other. (But, these did not occur in "no carry" zones.)

I generally agree that getting rid of bad laws is preferable to breaking them.

[wastedyears]

No, I haven’t fired one or owned one, but if I’m interested in a carry weapon, I’m going to look at that first.

I have small hands =\

[nodumbblonde]

When you have small hands, it makes it much more difficult. (Kind of like trying to find a decent motorcycle if you’re short. The world is definitely not geared towards small people. heheh)

Tons of good suggestions from helpful Freepers though! I want to see how this one feels next to the PPK and also the Bulldog.

[DougieQuick]

The real irony is that by Cho (or whatever his name was) exploding in anger and using a firearm rather than the friggen BOMB he was reputed to be considering or even a well thought out mass execution by arson (a method he also was reputed to dabble in) he very well may have INDAVERTEDLY SAVED many many lives! Now THAT is something we are not likely to hear on the news yet it’s probably the case! Let’s think just about the arson angle because that is something that no criminal law can do anything to limit (other than maybe las preventing SOME cases by simply keeping all known arsons in prison till they DIE) Cho liked the idea of locking exits, so what if he had engineered a very efficent highly cunsumptive fire in one or more dorm buildings that housed key targets? The dorms in question at 3:30AM are going to have how many sleeping? Hundreds?? Might not Cho have elected to use gasoline and some substances (materials purposely NOT mentioned)placed in the return air portions of the building’s HVAC system and in a way to consume and block exits as rapidly as possible ... how hard could that be for a bright college kit to figure out? Heck he likely could have disabled the alarm system too fo that matter and then as a crowning touch used the same trick he used in the gun murders which was to lock and chain the exits! HUNDREDS he might have killed if he didn’t have that gun available ... the gun allowed him an easier way to kill the next time he started really thinking and getting mad ... but heck without the gun he STILL was going to keep stewing, to keep thinking and to get madder and madder ... they say they are pretty sure he started one fire ... that may have been a little trial thing ... MAYBE he had been doing research into more effective methods arson? ya think? And the reports involving his interest in using a bomb sound totally in keeping with his mental state too I think ... how hard is a bomb to figure out? Especially for a bright college mind at a technical school? What does it take? Some fetilizer, some hobby fuse, a little bit of bang bang ... and/or any number of ignitables ... look at his WORDS! This boy was ANGRY! Every time he calmed down enough to think he probably just thought of more and more ideas of things he could do to lash out! But he got the gun and then he had a more simple route ... not the most efficient certainly but when he snapped finally he lost all reason ... MAYBE saving countless lives in doing so. Like said Ironic and something we will not likely hear on the evening news. Hey even the kids at Columbine were talking bomb were they not? And what is the most chosen way to kill US troops in IRAQ? Not with handguns obviously ... nope they use BOMBS!
The bottom line is that if we don’t direct our energies toward identifying the angry murderous types beforehand then sooner or later they ARE going to hurt somebody! My wife is in education and is so frustrated because there is NOTHING not a dang thing that educators can do at this time to bring individuals to the attention of law enforcement. I mean teachers and such can tell you with amazing accuracy who is going to be a threat... but they are not allowed to. It’s like not be allowed to help someone with a contagious disease before it kills them and others ... makes no sense to anyone who is victimized by these I can tell ya that!