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I was in a discussion with another freeper about which deterred crime more: the death penalty as punishment or an abundance of armed citizens. I argued that armed citizens have done far, far more than anything else to reduce criminal activity, the death penalty included. I had this supposedly conservative freeper then try to tell me that that was wrong, and that crime rates remain largely unaffected by the presence of armed citizens.

I don't know who sneaked in and stole conservatism, but I'd like to have it back now.

I argued that armed citizens have done far, far more than anything else to reduce criminal activity, the death penalty included.

This is an absolute no brainer. When someone is trying to assault you or your family, a pistol in the hand is a much more effective tool at stopping the attacker than an execution method on the books.

From a theoritical behavioral science perspective an abundance of armed citizens will deter more crime than the death penalty.

The threat of an armed citizen being present when a crime occurs is an immediate consequence. The death penalty is an indirect consequence inconsistantly applied.

The behavioral science concerning this is not in doubt. Immediate consequences deter more behavior than indirect inconsistant consequences.

You are right and I’m not aware of any competant behavioral scientist who would disagree.

I had this supposedly conservative freeper then try to tell me that that was wrong, and that crime rates remain largely unaffected by the presence of armed citizens.

Was that person talking about a specific crime? The research I have seen indicates no statistically significant effect on *murder* rates by either the death penalty or gun ownership. That research (I like Kleck's) indicates that there is a measurable decrease in theft and robbery rates when gun ownership increases.

"I was in a discussion with another freeper about which deterred crime more: the death penalty as punishment or an abundance of armed citizens."

How many murders per year? (over 16,000 in 2004) How many executions per year? (59 in 2004)

When the number of executions per year equals the number of murders per year, I'm betting that the death penalty deters more murders than guns.

I was in a discussion with another freeper about which deterred crime more: the death penalty as punishment or an abundance of armed citizens. I argued that armed citizens have done far, far more than anything else to reduce criminal activity, the death penalty included. I had this supposedly conservative freeper then try to tell me that that was wrong, and that crime rates remain largely unaffected by the presence of armed citizens.

FR allows a small contingent of 'majority rule socialists' to post their anti-gun agitprop; -- in effect we're using them as 'judas goats'.

I don't know who sneaked in and stole conservatism, but I'd like to have it back now.

The states 'rights'/majority rule faction have long been sneaking around claiming to be conservatives. - Actually most are prohibitionists of one sort or another.

They claim federal/state/local governments are allowed to pass gun control laws just as they are allowed to pass free speech laws; -- that people in our society only have the right to decide how they will live together as a group, not as individuals.