Government is legitimately allowed to use force to prevent people from being defrauded - you are correct and i should have specified that. It does not apply here though, unless the John refuses to pay or the whore rolls the John.
Sin begins well before an actual act is performed, anyone familiar with the bible knows this, especially if they have accepted the gospel and Jesus’ sacrifice on thier behalf. Sin begins in the heart so if you really want to use the force of Government to save souls we need to outlaw lustfully looking at a woman. That’s all it takes to condemn one to hell because Jesus clearly told us that is a commission of adultery in one’s heart and James tells us that to break one point of the Law is to break the whole Law. Remember GOD is perfectly Holy and will not countenance sin - there are no degrees with HIM. He is perfectly holy and just. GOD holds us accountable for our thoughts, words and deeds and sin’s development follows this pattern. Sinful heart produces sinful words and finally when opportunity finally knocks sin is realized by action.
That is why religion will not grant salvation, religious acts and religious abstinance will not sanctify - remember Jesus’ reference to the pharisees and saducees as white washed tombs?
I say all this to point out that legislating morality does nothing to make a society moral. At best it white washes things on the surface, at worst it creates secret perversions and a pride of the outward appearance that hardens society’s heart agains the conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT within a society’s heart.
While those who support a nanny state kneel before the alter and pray to God a prayer of thanks that they are so moral and upstanding and better than thier fellows, The LORD will be listening to the hookers and pot smokers who beat thier breasts before the alter crying in humility for true relief from the sin in thier hearts.
The more you legislate moral issues that don’t deprive others of tangible life, liberty and property through force or fraud the less relevant you make the church and set people up as idols who feel they can do a better job of convicting society of it’s immorality than GOD’s Holy Spirit and His Word.
Remember what happened to the last guy who thought he could and should take GOD’s place? Unfortunately there is no forgiveness for him and he prowls around us like a lion searching for whom he may devour.
That post was awesome. You said what I’ve been trying to say, but couldn’t quite find the wording.
You said — “Government is legitimately allowed to use force to prevent people from being defrauded - you are correct and i should have specified that. It does not apply here though, unless the John refuses to pay or the whore rolls the John.”
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The purpose of God-given government (which the Bible says that governmental authorities are God-given) is to restrain evil and to punish evil-doers. And how do we know what is “evil” or an “evil-doer” — other than by definition of the God who puts into place the “institution” of “government” for that purpose?
We see from God, Himself, that this is evil and those who participate in it are evil-doers. God is not concerned that two evil individuals made an agreement with each other to participate in an evil act. God condemns both evil doers for engaging in the evil act, regardless of money or contract or mutal agreement.
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And talking about the outlawing of thoughts, as Jesus *so appropriately* pointed out — that is where it starts — that is never something that was stated as a function of government. In fact, the Bible makes it clear that the punishment comes from the *action* — rather than the thought. Jesus was pointing out that the “action” comes from the “thought”. One leads to the other. The punishment comes when “thought” results in “action”. That’s *always* been the basis for Biblical punishment.
And you’ll note that when the Great White Throne judgement comes down (see end of Revelation), you’ll see that it’s the *deeds* and *actions* which are “judged” even then — and not the thoughts. The very simple reason is that “deeds” are the “outward manifestation” of “hidden thoughts”. And it’s the “outward manifestation” which is punished.
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You noted that “legislating morality” will not produce a moral society. Well, you are making the wrong assumptions here. It’s not supposed to produce a moral society. It’s simply supposed to *restrain evil* — nothing more and nothing less.
Its goal is *not* to “produce internal morals” where none exist in the first place. The *purpose* is to *restrain evil* — because if it is not restrained — it will be rampant and God has commanded this “institution” of “government” to be that *restraint* upon evil in the world.
So, you’re *wrong* in the presumption that it has *anything* to do with “producing morality”. That’s why that’s a false argument. It has nothing at all to do with producing morality.
You’ll also *note* that in the Millennial reign of Christ, that Jesus, rules with an iron rod and punishment is swift and sure. It’s not like it is today. There will be no room for deviation in the Millennial Kingdom of God, which will be on this earth during that 1,000 year reign. He will be reigning over some of these very same people (i.e., “individuals”) that we see alive, here on earth right now. And He will be ruling and reigning over these very same nations who are existent upon this earth today. And He will be ruling and reigning over the sames peoples (i.e., “people groups”) as who exist on this earth today.
With all that being said — and with the Millennial Reign of Christ being the *most restrictive* government to ever to exist on the face of this earth in the *history* of the earth — we find it to *still* have evil and sin in that Kingdom. So, even then — with Christ, Himself, ruling and reigning over the entire earth — it is still full of sin and it still has death. And people (even at that time) will *still* have to accept Christ as their savior. Very surprisingly (at least to some people, it is) — we find that millions and millions (if not *billions*) of people *rebel* against Christ in His rule and reign during that 1,000 year Kingdom of God on this earth.
So, even then — the aim is not to “produce morality” — but rather to *restrain* evil and *punish* evil-doers.