Posted on 05/11/2007 9:27:49 AM PDT by ellery
Former New York mayor and current Presidential candidate Rudolph Giuliani is a huge Yankees' fan. He was able to buy four World Series rings from the club--rings that normally aren't for sale and could be worth well into six figures.
We knew something was brewing when a reporter's research assistant for New York's Village Voice called SportsCollectorsDaily.com recently to discuss World Series rings and ask whether any had ever been given to politicians.
It seems ex-New York mayor Rudy Giuliani may have gotten a sweetheart deal on some Yankee title rings from 1996 to 2000 and the Voice presents a lengthy piece on it this week as reporter Wayne Barrett takes the Republican hopeful to task on the issue. Giuliani apparently paid about $4,000 for the rings, which are, by most all accounts, never sold by winning clubs--or given to city leaders. Some say the rings are worth a combined $250,000.
Giuliani responded in today's New York Times.
Nothing going on here...move along! Just another Rudy scandal.
I am no fan of Rudy, but I read this as tempest+teapot.
Heath
Yeah, just more noise.
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Agreed....
Is it illegal for people who own World Series rings to sell them?
Is it illegal to purchase World Series rings?
The problem is, only a few people not associated with a team are allowed to buy rings unless they are sold at auction later by collectors. Rudy got four.
And Rudy was also instrumental in getting all kinds of taxpayer-funded support for the new Yankee Stadium being built.
So it certainly gives the appearance of impropriety. Especially if arrangements were made by the team and Rudy to buy the rings at a later time while Rudy was still mayor.
Custom.
Well, there you go.
As far as the new Yankee Stadium is concerned, Giuliani was well-known as an aggressive booster of the idea from way back.
He didn't need convincing - his advocacy of and allegiance to the project was never in doubt.
And if he needed bribing, a gift of four rings spread out over five years would not have been nearly enough for him to take that kind of risk.
I’m sorry, this one doesn’t pass the smell test to me.
Rudy’s team is currently 7 games behind Mitt’s team, and Rudy’s team lost 14-2 yesterday while the Sox have won
15 of 20...
Ping...
Ping me when an appraiser confirms it.
Nothing here, keep moving along!! What was the total value of the gain? I’m CERTAIN he paid taxes on the full market value of the gifts, right? What? You mean he didn’t report the personal income?
Maybe he thought the rings would go good with his dress. Women need their jewelry.
And why? Because you don't want it to.
No laws were broken, there was no bribe and the consideration involved is miniscule in the context of Giuliani's net worth.
This would be like arguing that the candy manufacturers who sent President Reagan thousands of dollars worth of jellybeans were bribing him, and his subsequent pro-business legislation was an obvious qud pro quo that doesn't pass "the smell test."
The article says he paid $4000 each for the rings. I'd imagine that is what the Yankees paid for them. How is that a gift? What income is it that he was supposed to report?
Did you miss the part where their estimated value totals $250,000? If they are actually worth $250,000 and he got them for $4,000 each, he gained $234,000.
I am, too.
Course if the sucker didn’t report this as personal income in his IRS form, he's in deep, deep doo-doo.
Zero. No gain was realized.
He has never sold them.
I’m CERTAIN he paid taxes on the full market value of the gifts, right?
He purchased them. They were not gifts.
What? You mean he didn’t report the personal income?
There is no income to report here.
We’ll see if he hangs on to them.
How is this personal income?
By the way, if you or I purchase something of a collection value at a far reduced price, we owe taxes on it. Ask the IRS and see what they say. Tell them that you just bought a $250,000 collection of Yankee World Series rings, and you got them for a bargain price of $16,000. I’m sure they will pat you on the back and say “Good for you!”
Did he sell the rings? Unless or until he does, he has not realized any gain whatsoever. If he does, whatever money he makes beyond the price he paid for the rings will be considered a capital gain, and he will be liable for tax on his gain, but as of now, he has a lot of cash invested in rings. He hasn't made a penny in income from them.
What is so hard to understand about that?
Since these were not readily available for the general public for purchase, they are limited to who can buy them. It is the same thing as buying your mother’s house for $16,000 when it is worth $250,000. It is equivalent to a “gift”.
That is exactly what they will say. The IRS does not collect sales taxes, only income taxes. Now if you turn around and sell them for $250,000, they will want their take on the gain you made.
See #30. Go to the DMV and tell them that you just bought a $250,000 Ferrari for $16,000 from your friend.
Translation: "Yes I was completely and totally wrong about all that stuff - but if Giuliani ever gives up his lifelong Yankees fandom and if he ever sells his most prized memorabilia in the future and if he fails to report the gain on sale then I will have something legitimate to complain about in the future, hopefully!"
I am tired of the sloppy DU-style thinking being thrown around on this site.
Giuliani is wrong on abortion.
Giuliani is wrong on the 2nd Amendment.
Giuliani's positions on trade and immigration cannot be nailed down, even though they are two supremely important issues and every candidate should have a clearly articulated policy on them.
Giuliani has demonstrated in the past that personal loyalty matters more to him than integrity in choosing employees (Bernard Kerik).
All this stuff is accurate and damning.
All this speculation over rings he purchased at list price and still owns and which are worth less than a week's consulting fees to him is just silly.
The real problem is that the rings are estimated to be worth in the neighborhood of $250,000. Giuliani paid $16,000 for all four. He also did not declare the first World Series ring while he was mayor, even though the person who made that series of rings said he made Giuliani’s incribed ring in 1996 with the rest of the team rings.
During the time, Giuliani was cutting major deals with the Yankees that gave them many benefits funded by city tax dollars. He was also prosecuting others in city government who failed to declare gifts over $50.
And many of us are tired of the DU-style of attacks on us when we publish items that you don't like or agree with. It works both ways.
So?
Companies sell rare items at list price to prized customers all the time.
I buy limited edition records at list price knowing full well that years from now I could sell them on eBay for 10-20x list to collectors.
Is that a gift from the record company to me?
Not at all.
But that's not what you are getting.
You are getting a factual, point-by-point refutation of your poorly-reasoned argument.
Aren’t they asking for you at the other forum? The one that bears your screen name?
Why is that a problem?
Collectibles frequently go up in value.
Giuliani paid $16,000 for all four.
My dad paid 10 cents for a Tom Seaver 1969 Mets card. That's worth more than 15 times its original price. Is my dad a crook for buying it? He was a city employee at the time.
He also did not declare the first World Series ring while he was mayor, even though the person who made that series of rings said he made Giuliani’s incribed ring in 1996 with the rest of the team rings.
Why would he need to declare a ring he purchased?
During the time, Giuliani was cutting major deals with the Yankees that gave them many benefits funded by city tax dollars.
Really? Like what exactly?
He was also prosecuting others in city government who failed to declare gifts over $50.
Really? Name one person whom he prosecuted solely for accepting gifts over $50.
can affect your cognitive ability (if you ever had one).
Even worse, you might start saying nutsy-cuckoo things like:
"Rudy, Tudy, He's my man,
If he can't beat 'em nobody can."
Hardy-har-har.
Too bad you can't debate the issue on the merits.
How is a purchased item which has enver been resold "personal income"?
He got favorable treatment with something of high value, which is not acceptable for a politician. It smacks of quid pro quo , since he gave favorable financial treatment to the Yankees. Whether he was right or wrong, it gives the appearance of a crooked politician, getting a favor returned.
He was here recently and most of his questions were about abortion and those rings.
Finally, a rational response.
This is arguably true: however "high value" is a relative term when you are discussing multimillionaires.
The fact is that Giuliani is actually a huge Yankees fan, will probably never sell the rings unless he falls on desperate financial hard times, and he was already personal friends with the owner of the ballclub well before he was mayor.
It smacks of quid pro quo , since he gave favorable financial treatment to the Yankees.
This is where the argument breaks down. What favorable financial treatment did the Yankees receive, exactly?
Whether he was right or wrong, it gives the appearance of a crooked politician, getting a favor returned.
The question is: which favor are we talking about?
I have read where the Yankees received sweetheart deals from the city under Mayor Giuliani.
The DMV collects sales tax. They don't care if you really sold the car for $1. They want the sales tax based on the average price of that vehicle. The IRS collects income tax. They don't care what price you buy something for. The only care when you sell something and make a profit on it.
Rudy paid the Jeweler $4000 for a ring and the state and local sales taxes should have been collected by the Jeweler at that time.
Let me ask you this. Should the dozens of other people who got those same rings FOR FREE be subject to taxes based upon the value some sports memorabilia collector estimates or the actual value ($4000) charged by the jeweler who made them?
The way the IRS treats this is to consider it imputed income. The multi-million dollar players had taxes withheld from their pay as if they had made an additional $4000. The 6-figure coaches had the same amounted of imputed income added to their pay, as did the 5-figure clubhouse attendant, ground crew and other front office personnel that the Yankees deemed deserving.
They all get rings valued at $4000, not $250,000.
If at some point they sell that ring, the IRS will take their share of any gain made over the original sales price.
Can we be more specific?
The city certainly hasn't contributed any money to help Steinbrenner purchase that pricey roster of his.
The city hasn't spent a cent toward the huge cable-TV package that the Yankees benefit from - in fact the city vainly threatened the Yankees that they would interfere with the licenses for the YES network unless the Yankees reduced their income from the network. That was an empty threat since the city has no authority over the licensing process.
And the new Yankees Stadium that is in process is one of the few stadiums in America that is financed entirely through private investment without the use of any public grants.
So I am at a loss as to what sweetheart deals you are referring to.
It had to do with an agreement announced in December, 2001 just before Giuliani left office, which promised new stadiums for both the Mets and Yanks, with the city bearing half the estimated $1.6 billion construction cost. It gave the teams five one-year lease extensions, during which they could deduct up to $5 million a year apiece from their city rent payments for stadium planning costs. However, Bloomberg stopped it, I believe.
Is there a gift tax? I recall somebody getting a car (on Oprah?) and having to pay tax on it - same with someone getting a house in our area. Seems there is a technicality on how to avoid paying the tax. But this does raise the impression of impropriety and especially since he went after those who accepted small gifts.
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