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To: i_dont_chat
I don't say that we should have open borders, nor that we should accept those who are non-working criminal types who wish to abuse us. But no, 15 million men, women and children are not criminals, and certainly not felony criminals. Under current law illegal presence is not a criminal offense; it is a civil offense punishable by civil sanctions and deportation. In other words, the government was remiss in not preventing their entry into the US years ago. But now that they are here, some for many years, many with children born and raised in the US, deporting them is senseless cruelty. I am in favor of amnesty. Under the following conditions: 1) Illegals must be fully registered with the federal and State government in the State in which they reside. They must obey all licensing and insurance rules to drive, pay all back taxes assessed, they must have current vaccinations and be free from any contagious disease excluded from entry into the United States. 2) Adults must be either gainfully employed or live with a head of household who is gainfully employed. They must have a legal residence, and all children must be enrolled in school. 3) Felony convictions may result in permanent deportation after they serve their sentence. All citizenship requirements must be met within a limited period of time, and citizenship must be applied for an accepted for all members of the household. 4) Association with known criminals or violation of injunctions against gang participation may result in deportation. Payment of a $5,000 fine to offset the costs associated with their illegal presence. The bottom line is that the United States can and does assimilate a large number of people every year from many corners of the Earth. The current Mexican illegal alien problem is not because of an inability to integrate a reasonable number into our society, but because so many have entered illegally, they have overwhelmed our ability to integrate them. Fortunately, the birthrate in Mexico has now dropped to the developed nation level of 2.3 children per family. This means that no matter what we do, there will be a marked decline in the pressure of additional immigrants. And Mexicans as a people also have shown a much better ability to integrate than is typical for the other waves of immigrants that have arrived in America. Often the same household will have grandparents only slightly integrated, children who are functional in our society, and grandchildren who are fully American, with no ties left to Mexico. So in about 10 years, most of the problem will be over, no matter what we do. Unless we do something brutalitarian and dramatic.
17 posted on 06/05/2007 8:15:44 PM PDT by Popocatapetl
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To: Popocatapetl
But no, 15 million men, women and children are not criminals, and certainly not felony criminals. Under current law illegal presence is not a criminal offense; it is a civil offense punishable by civil sanctions and deportation.

Granted, illegal entry is not a felony but it doesn't stop there. On top of that if they hold jobs, they are either using forged documents or using stolen identity. How about obtaining goods and services under false pretenses? How about uttering and publishing as additional charges?

Any American citizen trying to pull this scrap would be in greybar hotel in no time flat, yet an illegal, because they are hard working, get away with it.

In other words, the government was remiss in not preventing their entry into the US years ago.

Now I've heard it all. Blame the US government for their criminal activity. If anyone is to blame it is people like you that have more concern about illegal foreign nationals than your own country and fellow Americans.

If you're so compassionate, why don't you publish your address along with an invitation for illegals to move into your house, feed them, provide the services of your doctor at your expense and pay their legals bills when needed?

20 posted on 06/06/2007 5:02:50 AM PDT by varon (Allegiance to the constitution, always. Allegiance to a political party, never.)
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To: Popocatapetl

I am not wanting to argue with you just for the sake of arguing. I truly want to get across to you the facts about the Mexican illegal aliens – not some pie-in-the-sky rationalizations.

I live in Southwest Houston, TX, and my neighborhood is overrun with Mexican illegals. Your expressed perception of how immigrates (illegal or legal) were able to assimilate into our society MAY have been true in years past, but that is not the way it is now.

1) These Mexican illegals will NOT register with federal/State agencies. They speak no English or very poor English. They fear being deported. They don’t know anything about our licensing laws. They don’t have papers until they are able to BUY forged documents. They DO NOT HAVE car insurance. They buy and sell old, unsafe automobiles from each other – cars and trucks which don’t have legal tags or inspection stickers. They don’t get drivers licenses – they don’t know how to drive or our driving rules/laws. They don’t pay employment taxes. They congregate in bunches all over the city, forming “day-labor pools” where people pay them in cash to do handy-man type jobs by the day or hour. They don’t make doctors appointments for vaccinations and examinations. When they get sick or injured, they sit in the emergency room of hospitals until they are seen – all at the expense of taxpayers.

2) You said: Adults must be either gainfully employed or live with a head of household who is gainfully employed. They must have a legal residence, and all children must be enrolled in school.

These illegals don’t have heads of households. They don’t have households. Mexican families (usually relatives) take these people into their houses – sometimes 2 or 3 or 4 families at a time. Our neighborhood association stipulates “single-family” residents. We stopped trying to enforce that 10 years ago. These Mexican illegals “hide” their children – having them stay indoors so they won’t get reported as truant from school. There are dozens of houses just within a several block area from my house which house up to 18 people at a time. We see them coming and going. They are Mexican, speak no English. They engage in whatever activity they can to make a few dollars to contribute toward buying food for the group.

3) There is no such thing as permanent deportation – even for those convicted felons. We have no border control. They come right back – to the same neighborhood, to be with their relatives (illegal or not), to be near their children (anchor babies). They DO NOT comply with any citizenship requirements.

4) As far as getting their hands on $5,000 – the only way this is possible is to engage in illegal activity – which some of them do. Drug trafficing, stealing cars, sell cars in parking lots. Most, however, struggle day-by-day to provide food and shelter – getting $5,000 to pay the government is a JOKE. It will never happen.

I know from living experience how badly our Federal government has failed in protecting our borders. But that doesn’t mean that we cannot make a change, and INSIST that our laws be enforced.

Your assessment is completely upside-down. You seem to be saying that the illegals are the victims, and we law-abiding citizens are the bad guys.

We, here in Houston, have been extremely welcoming to Mexicans into our society. But we have been rewarded by being overrun, our hospitals on the verge of bankrupcy, our public school becoming hostile places, our highways and byways become dangerous, and our neighborhoods turned into gigantic multi-family dwellings which don’t take care of their property.

There are very serious ramifications involved, and our great Country is on the verge of collapse if our laws are not enforced.


21 posted on 06/06/2007 7:59:16 AM PDT by i_dont_chat (I reserve to right to offend anyone. You can take offense or not! Your choice.)
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To: Popocatapetl; i_dont_chat; varon
"Under current law illegal presence is not a criminal offense; it is a civil offense punishable by civil sanctions and deportation."

____________________________________________________

You are wrong, likely lying...this is the US Code...

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or

(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

It is a federal crime punishable by prison.

28 posted on 06/06/2007 5:05:36 PM PDT by wtc911 ("How you gonna get back down that hill?")
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To: Popocatapetl
deporting them is senseless cruelty.

Mexico has a $1 TRILLION economy, the 13th largest in the world.

It has PER CAPITA income BIGGER than six or seven EUROPEAN countries, including Poland, Bulgaria, and others.

Your obvious belief that Mexico is this downtrodden starving country is pure blather, perpetuated by the open borders crowd who wants to turn America into Mexico North, complete with a socialist-Democratic majority for decades to come. (If not forever)

Illegals flock to America due in part to all the economic safety nets we have in place. Others have fantasies about America due to watching Hollywood TV - and think they will just automatically become gazsee TV fantasy illionaires by crossing the border.

It's a natural self-preservation strategy, and it's hard to blame them, but America culture simply cannot absorbe another 100 million Third World destitutes in the next few years without lapsing into a balkanized civil war, either politically or for real -- with the fed-up suburbs arming themselves and passing laws to keep out those who dont fit into life.

My son lives in California, and he talks constantly about passing through all illegal immigrant towns where they have OPEN AIR animal markets, cock fights, families cooking goats on the roadside, and other things one would find in Central America.

If that's the kind of life you want, I suggest taking a 20 year trip to Honduras.

37 posted on 06/07/2007 7:07:17 AM PDT by Edit35
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