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Solar power costs dropping, nearing competition
Reuters ^ | 6/22/2007 | Rebekah Kebede

Posted on 06/22/2007 6:06:55 AM PDT by Uncledave

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To: Uncledave

When there’s a problem, we humans, especially Americans, solve it! All the moaning and wailing about the high cost of gas will stop! All the socialist nonsense that’s pushing the “global warming” myth will end.
If solar power becomes cost-effective, the dependency on middle east oil will end, and the billions of dollars that are wasted on the middle east will stay in the USA, and the USA won’t have to waste the billions of dollars that it pours into the middle east to keep the oil flowing, and the jihadis won’t be receiving trillions of dollars of our money that they use to kill Christians and Jews.


61 posted on 06/22/2007 11:04:31 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged
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To: Uncledave
Nevertheless, renewables, given modern technology, can be an attractive piece of the puzzle.

Well, in an effort to find common ground, let me say this. If the energy storage problem can be solved, I've always thought the following would provide a very clean environment with reasonable-cost electricity:

1. Use nuclear units for meeting baseload demand, since they are a reliable, intense energy source that produces humongous amounts of energy at low cost, and

2. Use renewables for production of stored energy that can be tapped to fill in the gaps in the demand curve. This avoids the problem of renewables as an unreliable source of capacity. IOW, think of the renewables as a source of energy, not capacity.

62 posted on 06/22/2007 11:11:32 AM PDT by chimera
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To: Uncledave
Uncledave said: "Your points about investments are sound, but to be fair there's no energy generation projects with two year paybacks."

If one is in the business of generating energy, then long term plans with more modest expectations can be successfully pursued. But even here, one can see the significant effect of the political situation.

My comments would be more applicable to incremental improvements to businesses or private installations whose purpose is not related to energy generation.

63 posted on 06/22/2007 11:19:46 AM PDT by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: William Tell
Do you buy a new car every month? Why not? For most of us, the reason would be that the expense would not be justified.

Thus the reason for my post...see the headline???

You mustn't base your decisions on highly biased reports of how damaging CO2 is going to be or how limited the world supply of crude oil is.

Never even thought of this...just thought, why aren't we using the sun, and glad prices are coming down so that more of us can heat our water and make electricity ourselves.

When solar energy installations have payback periods close to two years, without the uncertainty of continued government subsidy, then you will see significant activity.

Again, the reason for my post...glad to see, according to this headline, things are changing, BECAUSE, I just can't imagine...even being a mean 'ol Republican (as "they" think we are)... not making good use of the wonderful sunshine we have here in CA and in FL and HI. It's just a sin that it's wasting away every day.

And, the REAL answer to my fake turf question, you neglected to comment on... THAT answer is that we have too many union members and illegals that need work maintaining our landscapes!

64 posted on 06/22/2007 11:19:53 AM PDT by NordP (The greatest gift God can give us is LIFE. The greatest gift man can give to another is FREEDOM.)
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To: chimera

What you outline is sensible and what I think we’re moving towards.


65 posted on 06/22/2007 11:20:12 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: chimera

I said NEARLY 100% ;-) where there’s a lot of sun. The sun is getting a bad rap with the skin cancer thang these days. I’m on the PR committee for LOVE THE SUN ;-) (I grew up in Minnesota...can yah tell? ;-)


66 posted on 06/22/2007 11:21:36 AM PDT by NordP (The greatest gift God can give us is LIFE. The greatest gift man can give to another is FREEDOM.)
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To: William Tell
When solar energy installations have payback periods close to two years, without the uncertainty of continued government subsidy, then you will see significant activity.

That says a lot when you think about it. How long will you stay in your present home? If the payback period is too far down the road, you may not be there to enjoy it. I don't expect to stay in this same house more than 5 years, 6 tops. Possibly less if I decide to pursue a new career, or get transferred. Anything that doesn't present a positive cash flow for me within 2-3 years is a waste.

67 posted on 06/22/2007 11:25:59 AM PDT by meyer (RNC, DNC, two sides of the same coin.)
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To: Uncledave

le kewl!


68 posted on 06/22/2007 11:30:52 AM PDT by ken21 (tv: 1. sells products. 2. indoctrinates viewers into socialism.)
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To: meyer
Needless to say, I'm currently looking at alternatives to reduce the amount of radiant heat I'm getting in the summer.

There's some kind of film that you can get that you apply to the windows. It's used in places like Arizona. I Googled and found ScotchTint.

69 posted on 06/22/2007 11:35:53 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: OCCASparky

On the lowend you are talking under 3KW, on the higher end probably up to 20KW.


70 posted on 06/22/2007 11:37:12 AM PDT by ikka
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To: Uncledave

I’m thinking about going solar a little bit at a time, along with a wind generator or two. I’m tired of high electric bills and power outages, but most of all, I hate relying on someone else.


71 posted on 06/22/2007 11:38:00 AM PDT by pallis
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To: meyer
meyer said: "Anything that doesn't present a positive cash flow for me within 2-3 years is a waste."

Not only do you need to "buy" into whatever improvements you make, when it becomes time to sell, you will have to get the new buyers to "buy" into those same improvements.

If your solar energy system is dependent upon a bank of batteries, how would you convince the new buyer that the batteries are not on the brink of failure? The risk of such things will cause buyers to expect a discounted price.

I haven't read what the latest expectation is for hybrid car battery systems, but the usable lifetime of such systems plays a major role in the economics of owning such a car. Imagine how the resale of such a car might depend upon an assessment of remaining battery life.

One should be especially skeptical of developments which are so highly emotionally supported by the liberal establishment. These people want so much to believe in global warming as justification for central government control, and in alternative energy as justification for subsidizing its use, that one can barely discern the truth about these matters.

72 posted on 06/22/2007 11:42:50 AM PDT by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: VictoryGal

Doubling the price and then taxing the users on top of the price per KWH sounds like a good idea to you?


73 posted on 06/22/2007 11:43:13 AM PDT by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: meyer
Have you ever heard of a concept called residual value?

The solar power system should be valued at about the present value of future generation. You add that to the price of the house when you move. If the system was economical that value would exceed the initial investment. Of course that value is based on assumptions regarding the life of the system and future electric rates, so there is always lots of weasel room.

74 posted on 06/22/2007 11:48:15 AM PDT by Dinsdale
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To: Dinsdale

Sorry.

The solar power system should be valued at about the present value of future generation minus maintenance costs.


75 posted on 06/22/2007 11:50:15 AM PDT by Dinsdale
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To: William Tell

“I worked in a business environment in which a one year payback on investment was considered quite attractive. Two years was also pretty much a no-brainer. But when you calculate a ten year payback, then you are dealing with a situation where circumstances might quickly change and cause the investment to have no payback or possibly even a long term cost that was not anticipated. “

Please find me a scenario where our need for energy levels off or the world suddenly starts working without energy sources.

It’s not at all a risky long-term investment to develop new sources of competitive energy. The risk, so to speak, is that anything that doesn’t pay off in a year or two won’t result in a promotion or job-hopping opportunity. As a result people chase what can pay now and miss what we desperately need to have ready for later.

How do you think we got into a situation where the crucial resources we need to drive our whole economy are in the hands of 8th-century fanatics who want us dead? Short-term tactical thinking. Pah.


76 posted on 06/22/2007 12:35:02 PM PDT by No.6 (www.fourthfightergroup.com)
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To: William Tell
If your solar energy system is dependent upon a bank of batteries, how would you convince the new buyer that the batteries are not on the brink of failure?

If you have a sizable battery storage system at home, then you're probably talking about an off-grid location where there's no grid-tied option for the buyer. The solar power system would have definite value in the sale.

If you're grid-tied and you want the peace of mind of a back up system, then you're right that the battery system is not going to hold their full value. But a lot of things people put in their homes don't hold their value.

Your main point holds that for a grid-tied location, solar is not a good investment, especially if you carve out the govt handouts. But in certain sunny spots and in certain applications, the equation is getting more attractive. Especially for solar thermal, which is an efficient and trouble-free way to make hot water. Most of the energy in solar radiation is in the form of heat, not light, so this is an effective approach. They already payback in the 3-5 year range in most areas in this country, and with power prices increasing this payback period will shrink further. You're going to see a lot of these coming online. They have already in many parts of the world.

77 posted on 06/22/2007 12:39:00 PM PDT by Uncledave
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To: Uncledave

Have you heard of the idea of putting turbines along the highway that are turned by speeding cars. No EZ turf.


78 posted on 06/22/2007 12:49:01 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: Dinsdale
Have you ever heard of a concept called residual value?

I'm not convinced that it is fully applicable to the sale of residential property. Consider that one generally does not recoup near the cost of a finished basement or add-on porch, even though those have value and generally hold that value for decades. I don't think that the cost of a solar power system would fare any better.

Now, if the system were small enough that it could be packed up and moved with me, that would be very positive. Of course, it would still have to pay for itself in just a few years IMHO.

79 posted on 06/22/2007 12:52:13 PM PDT by meyer (RNC, DNC, two sides of the same coin.)
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To: meyer
Finished basements generate income? As rental units perhaps.

Besides solar power is very green. It will not only increase the value of your house, it makes hippie chicks puddle. And who can put a dollar value on that.

80 posted on 06/22/2007 12:55:25 PM PDT by Dinsdale
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