The Cross and the Flag: Reflecting on the Fourth of July

You're not getting the point. Like it or not, they were still members of the British Empire. If we are to take this author's view of patriotism, then the Framers were bad patriots. Which in the world of some flag wavers makes them bad Christians (and yes I've heard that sermon before, can't be a Christian without being a 'patriot'. If you're not 'patriotic' you're not adhering to Romans 13, etc.)

It has nothing to do with the actions themselves. Is it unpatriotic then to stand up to something you feel the government should not be involved in or doing?

Although I will say I thought of illegal aliens as soon as I read it (and I know you’re going for a quip), the sad part is that we have somewhere between 12 and 20 million illegals and a population of around 300 million. That means that even if illegals were in this sample, there are about 55-63 million Americans who’ve come out of our school systems without basic historical knowledge. I’m betting almost every one of the folks in this survey who screwed this question up was a product of the public schools.

Standing up against what one sees as an injustice or wrong action by the State then is just as patriotic as the one out there waving the flag until their (sic) hand falls off.

By doing something about the injustices perpetrated on America by London, the signers of the Declaration of Independence were certainly good patriots by your definition.

And note, during the WBTS, all the South was trying to do was the same thing that the 13 colonies, several of them in the South, had done all those years before.

Have you ever considered who made the first act of aggression in both those wars? Have you ever considered how the list of British abuses against the colonists compares to the list of grievances listed by the South?

I’d say the first act of aggression was caused in the Revolution by the British, and in the WBTS by the U.S. Case in point, Fort Sumter was sovereign Confederate territory, and once we had declared it as such, there was a responsibility on the part of the central government, to evacuate that fort.

The federal attempt to resupply the fort constituted an affront to the sovereignty of the C.S.A. and that should honestly be counted as the first “shot” of the war.

"The Framers were not revolting over religion or severe oppression."

"In 1762, the king vetoed the charter for America's first missionary society; he also suppressed other religious freedoms and even prevented Americans from printing an English language Bible. How did Americans respond? They took action; and almost unknown today is the fact that Declaration signers such as Samuel Adams and Charles Carroll cited religious freedom as the reason they became involved in the American Revolution. And significantly, even though Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin (two of the least religious signers) are typically the only signers studied today, almost half of the signers of the Declaration (24 of 56) held what today would be considered seminary or Bible school degrees. Clearly, for many Founders, religious issues were an important motivation behind their separation from Great Britain; but that motivation is largely ignored today."

"One of the major causes was taxation"

True. But it wasn't the main reason, even though we were taught that in school (was in my school days anyway).

"An obvious example of the secularization of history occurs each year around the Fourth of July. Americans are taught that “taxation without representation” was the reason America separated from Great Britain; yet “taxation without representation” was only reason number seventeen out of the twenty-seven reasons given in the Declaration of Independence - it was not even in the top half, yet it's all that most ever hear. Never mentioned today are the numerous grievances condemning judicial activism - or those addressing moral or religious or other issues."

God: Missing in Action from American History

Well no offense to the good Framers (of who M.E. Bradford said I believe 53 of the 55 Framers were regular church goers and I have no reason to doubt) but I imagine the Stamp Act of 1765 had something to do with prevention of a Bible. Not to mention any Bible printed in the colonies would most likely be translated not showing due respect towards monarchs as the KJV was. Less to do with religious freedom in the true sense and more to do with preservation of the monarchy's control in these United States

As for Carroll, he was a Catholic wasn't he? Of course the anger from him has to be tempered somewhat by the longstanding feud between Catholicism and Protestantism, going on at least since Good Queen Bess

Adams on the other hand was quite clear as early as 1768 his reasoning for joining the cause.

Americans are taught that “taxation without representation” was the reason America separated from Great Britain; yet “taxation without representation” was only reason number seventeen out of the twenty-seven reasons given in the Declaration of Independence - it was not even in the top half, yet it's all that most ever hear

And yet 5 of the top 7 deal in some fashion with representation before the King.

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