My anchor babies

1. “From my viewpoint, you’re a citizen of the country you owe allegiance to.”

I am a citizen of Mexico. I am a Permanent Resident of the United States. Two different concepts. What’s the issue?

2. “Why is this fellow here when we have so many Americans that can’t find a job, and work in the same field as he does?”

Your statement is just plainly and completely wrong and misinformed. In fact, my field of work, like so many other so-called “highly qualified” jobs (especially in finance) is suffering from a shortage of people in the current economic cycle. My phone is ringing off the hook with recruiters trying to lure me to work for other US firms and international firms (in fact, I was just offered a job in Mexico making more than I make now in New York, so your wish about my going “home” may come true).

So, “why is this felow here?”, you ask. I assume you are pro free-markets. Well, if you ask an economist, the central tenets of free markets are: unregulated trade and movements of goods, money, technology and labor. Clearly, unregulated movement of people poses some problems in today’s post 9/11 world, but the reality is that, whether you realize it and understand it and like it or not, the economy today is globalized and US investment banking firms are competing against European and Asian firms in the global field. So, who do you think a US firm doing business globally is more likely to hire if given the choice between two guys who are both legally here (one is a citizen, the other a legal permanent resident), who have similar academic background and technical expertise, but one speaks English only while the other one can communicate in four languages fluently?

3. “A compromise, Tavo. While you’re in this country, you speak the prevailing language exclusively and teach your children American culture, American history, English language...”

Your tagline tells me that you are a libertarian at heart. Good for you!

So, I think you will completely agree with me that it is not your business nor American society’s business nor the US government’s business nor anybody else’s business to tell me what I should teach my kids or what language I should speak. Let’s be consistent! Or is playing Big Brother all of a sudden OK?

4. “...that corrupt hellhole called Mexico.”
Not much to comment here frankly. So, how many times have you been to Mexico? (I bet that if you’ve been there, it’s probably been to a beach resort, where you probably spoke only in... let me guess... English? and got next to zero exposure to the local culture)... I really don’t think you’re qualified to give an opinion about my country. Your thoughtless insults are irrelevant.

Regards,

“A compromise, Tavo. While you’re in this country, you speak the prevailing language exclusively and teach your children American culture, American history, English language and nothing whatsoever of that corrupt hellhole called Mexico.”

My prior post may have betrayed a bit of impatience. I apologize in advance for this. It’s not my style to patronize. I stand by the substance of my arguments, but wish I had used different words. I hope you didn’t take offense.

Let me use an example to illustrate why I think your argument does not stand on its own. Let’s assume you are an oil field worker and that you are hired by a US oil corporation to work in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years. Pay is good and it’s a good professional opportunity and a chance to make good money to take care of your family. Off you go to Saudi Arabia, under a work visa. Are you trying to tell me that while you are in Saudi Arabia you would teach your children Saudi Arabian culture, history and language (and we may add: religion) and that someone (the Saudi Arabian government, or Saudi Arabian society), has the right to tell you what to teach your children???

You can’t possibly be serious! I’m sure you would not do this. So, why would you try to apply a different standard to me?

As I’ve said. I like and respect (and yes, love) my host country. I comply with its laws, pay taxes and contribute to its vigorous economy. In exchange I am well paid and have a good quality of life for my family. I am gratitude to the US for this. But that’s the end of it. I don’t owe “allegiance” to this country and I most certainly don’t believe that anybody can tell me what I should teach my kids.

Of course, rest assured I will teach them to love and respect the country they were born in, and also to love and respect their Mexican heritage.

I don’t know why this is even controversial.

Take care,

“What bright ones? Seriously, give me a list.”
Ok, here it goes.

Some great traits in Mexican culture are (in no particular order):
- Strong family values.
- Respect for elders.
- Hard work. I know many people who start their day at 4 in the morning and finish it at 10PM. I have rarely seen so much hard work.
- Eagerness to help.
- Hospitality.
- Polite and respectfull to a fault.
- Discreet.
- Peaceloving to a fault.

Of course, these describe general cultural traits that I’ve observed in many of my countrymen. There are bad apples like anywhere else.

Maybe you have never had a chance to experience these traits first hand because I suspect you have not befriended many Mexicans. That’s too bad. Many of these people are truly the salt of the earth.

Other things I like of Mexican culture:
- Ancient civilization, incredible cultural richness. Mexico City was the largest city in America at a time when cities like Boston or New York did not even exist.
- Emerging democracy.
- Dynamic economy. Mexican economy is growing faster than the US economy (starting off a much lower base, of course), and has shown significant dynamism in the last decade or so.
- Growing conscience of its own shortcomings and strengths.

“You’re right. I never said I was objective...”
I rest my case.

I bet that if you’ve been there, it’s probably been to a beach resort, where you probably spoke only in... let me guess... English? and got next to zero exposure to the local culture

LoL... yeah, people are dying to go there. Last I heard close to 1/5 th of there population born there ends up here because it is such a great place.

Wife went on a church mission in the late 80's. Non-tourist areas... it wasn't pleasant.. she got sick..

I personally haven't been, but have worked with numerous people that were probable illegals (taking over jobs that Americans used to hold). One bright fellow told me about his trip back to see his dying father, the bribes, the payoffs, the class envy, the underground methods etc... if is not a "hellhole" it is not far off IMHO and from what I have read from other countries, Mexico is advanced.... compared to say.. Guatemala. Locally the Guatemalan immigrants have nearly caught up with the Mexican illegals. Odd to see how the two cultures despise each other for the most part and they tend to not socialize together.

I am a citizen of Mexico.

Your children are "Anchor babies".. somehow you argue that they are just as American as I am.. I highly doubt that since my roots run deep and our families blood has been shed for this country. Perhaps legally they can claim to be just as American, but just because you have paid a few years taxes doesn't in my book make you American. In my book, John Kerry ain't American, he is some French gigilo, thou his family (on some side) may go back hundreds of years here. American to you may just mean some location where you hop around looking for the highest paying job, to me is much more, something worth dying for and protecting against invasion.

I bet that if you’ve been there, it’s probably been to a beach resort, where you probably spoke only in... let me guess... English? and got next to zero exposure to the local culture

LoL... yeah, people are dying to go there. Last I heard close to 1/5 th of there population born there ends up here because it is such a great place.

Wife went on a church mission in the late 80's. Non-tourist areas... it wasn't pleasant.. she got sick..

I personally haven't been, but have worked with numerous people that were probable illegals (taking over jobs that Americans used to hold). One bright fellow told me about his trip back to see his dying father, the bribes, the payoffs, the class envy, the underground methods etc... if is not a "hellhole" it is not far off IMHO and from what I have read from other countries, Mexico is advanced.... compared to say.. Guatemala. Locally the Guatemalan immigrants have nearly caught up with the Mexican illegals. Odd to see how the two cultures despise each other for the most part and they tend to not socialize together.

I am a citizen of Mexico.

Your children are "Anchor babies".. somehow you argue that they are just as American as I am.. I highly doubt that since my roots run deep and our families blood has been shed for this country. Perhaps legally they can claim to be just as American, but just because you have paid a few years taxes doesn't in my book make you American. In my book, John Kerry ain't American, he is some French gigolo, thou his family (on some side) may go back hundreds of years here. American to you may just mean some location where you hop around looking for the highest paying job, to me is much more, something worth dying for and protecting against invasion.

“Horsecrap! Yours was a carefully worded condemnation of the gringo. To try to convince otherwise would be pointless.”

Perhaps you could point me to the portions in my post where I “condemn the gringo” (sic)

Oh, maybe it is where I wrote: “let me clarify that my rant is in no way intended as an indictment of an entire country. In all fairness I have to say that this is the first time in my 10 years in this country that I’ve directly experienced something close to xenophobia. I consider myself a New Yorker (after 10 years here you’d expect that) and have many good friends in this city and this country. I also realize that prejudice is, alas, prevalent among different cultures.”

I guess you got me there!

Tavo,

If you went to Saudi Arabia or China or Russia, you’d be subject to abusive attention. Why? Because there is suspicion of the legitimacy of your residence. It is the same way in the Estados Unidos - there are so many illegals that the legals (like you and your family) have to suffer.

If you don’t like it, you should participate in making a change for the better. You should support the construction of fences and similar measures, then you and your family wouldn’t be so suspect.

1. “Your children are “Anchor babies”.. somehow you argue that they are just as American as I am.. I highly doubt that since my roots run deep and our families blood has been shed for this country.”

I respect the heorism and patriotism of your kin. As a non-American, I cannot claim to understand it and appreciate it in its full dimension, but I can respect it, and I do.

As you know, deep running roots, which I don’t doubt you have, don’t legally make someone more of an American than another one. The law does not care if you can trace your ancestry back to the Mayflower or if you are a naturalized citizen. Perhaps you think it should be otherwise. I’m just stating the legal fact, that’s all.

2. “Just because you have paid a few years taxes doesn’t in my book make you American.”

You’re mixing the arguments. Pears and apples here. I have never claimed to be an American. The argument I make about my paying taxes here is that I am law abiding and in no way depending on the US taxpayer. That’s all I’m saying about me. I am absolutely clear that that does not make me a citizen. But it does make me a law abiding Permanent Resident. Nothing more, but certainly nothing less.

The argument about my kids being Americans is a totally separate and different one. They, as you know, are legally as American as you are.

Cheers,

I haven’t read through this entire thread, but your arrogant attitude just irks me.

And your point about how courteous the illegals are is just wrong.

Exactly what is your agenda on this forum? Just curious.

Strong family values.

Like having two families, one here, one there... very common with some of my coworkers when I worked in the hosiery business.

Respect for elders. Polite and respectfull to a fault.

Hard work.

I work in a steel fab business. dang tough heavy hard work..long hours.. 240 employees.. 1 Mexican fellow has held on to his job... Town population now about 35% Hispanic. It can be two things causing this poor percentage.. one.. either the hard work or the test being in English requiring an 8th grade level of math ability and reading comprehension.

Eagerness to help.

According to the America's 10 ten wanted list in cities around the US.. looks like alot are eager to kill people.

Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily (Many statistics)

Hospitality.

Guess they wore out their welcome in their native country.

Discreet. Peace-loving to a fault.

.

Here is one I would like to see... Law abiding... and according to my link above, illegals average around 4 or more arrests within 10 years.

Well, perhaps if you read through the thread you would realize the types of posts that I’ve been responding to and may justify my “arrogant attitude”.

If nothing else, I have been polite with everyone. Including those who are insulting me or my country. What is the “arrogant attitude” you describe and find so “irking”? That I dare respond to the insults or false arguments? That I dare to point out that I am here legally and am a productive member of society and not living off charity or the American tax payer?

I would invite you to read the thread in this light. Read my posts and contrast them with the posts I was replying to. If you still find my attitude arrogant, I suspect it might be because you somehow think I don’t “deserve to be here”... and therefore should sit quietly while someone hurls insults at my family or insinuates that I’m living off the American taxpayer. Not everybody in this thread has followed this pattern, of course, but if you read it you’ll realize there are enough personal attacks in these posts to warrant my responses.

And, my agenda? If I have one, I suspect it is to point out that precisely this type of ad hominem attacks are the wrong thing to engage in to solve what clearly is a complex problem.

All the best,

Perhaps you can point me to a post where I have insulted or patronized someone (and didn’t immediately apologize if I even came close of doing this). If so, I promise to apologize immediately to the person involved.

You call illegal aliens, “criminals”, but if you want to get technical, crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor, or else, you should use the word criminal to describe anybody guilty of a misdemeanor, which I suspect you wouldn’t...

What else would you call someone who breaks the law every single day but a criminal? Not only are these people breaking the immigration laws of this country, they are also committing all kinds fraud regarding the way they are using stolen social security numbers, and committing identity theft. They are driving without licenses, driving drunk, running away from accidents, and any number of other crimes that adversely affect other people. These are not victimless crimes because they take no responsibility for their actions when they cause harm, even death to others. This boils down to a basic cultural problem. Because of the endemic culture of corruption in mexico, they have no respect for the laws either of their home country or U.S. law.

You state:

You are right to point out that Mexico is still in large part a Kleptocracy (yet accountability continues to improve), but this speaks more about the ethical state of the country’s political elite than it does about the moral state of the general population and in any event does not automatically make a country a “hellhole”.

Wrong. Corruption in mexico extends to every level of its society. Graft is a national sport that goes all the way from the president to the lowest functionary at your average municipality. There are places all over the world (most of it actually) that are just like this, and yes, that does make them hellholes. If you're not a part of the top few percent of the population in most of the world outside of europe and north america, you're completely screwed. Mexico is a part of that 'third world' where the rule of law means little enough.

You are free to call Mexico as you please (fortunately, the fate of my country does not hinge on the opinion of someone like you), but I believe most decent people would refrain from insulting a whole country based on the transgressions of some (even millions) of their inhabitants, or the shortcomings of its governing elite.

If one can't make generalizations based on the day to day actions of millions, if not an outright majority of its inhabitants. (I notice you don't use the word "citizens"), then I don't know where else one might do so. Let mexicans fix mexico rather than try to bring their messed-up society here. There is nothing inherrantly wrong with the place. The people are fairly hard working, there are plenty of natural resources, and plenty of arable land. If you had rule of law perhaps you could do something with the place.

I'm glad that you're a legal resident and all that. Woopie. Hurray for you. If you are, in fact, a mexican national, I'd suggest that someone as obviously educated as yourself could probably do more for his country there than here. However, you're not there are you? You're here, in the U.S. whining because someone made a comment about your children being anchor babies. Boo freaking hoo.

Go home. Work there. Have children there. Speak Spanish there.

Good job at summarizing the sentiments of many (myself included) in just a few easily understood words.

“This boils down to a basic cultural problem. Because of the endemic culture of corruption in mexico, they have no respect for the laws either of their home country or U.S. law.”

I disagree. After all, we are in the US. If anybody has failed to “enforce the rule of law” has been US authorities. Let me remind you that illegal aliens have not broken any Mexican laws (any Mexican citizen is free to go out of the country as he/she pleases).

“Corruption in mexico extends to every level of its society. Graft is a national sport that goes all the way from the president to the lowest functionary at your average municipality.”

I have invested and being doing business in Mexico for the past 5 years or so. Construction business. We deal with government authorizations and licenses all the time. I can say, that I have never had to pay a bribe.

A couple of years ago, I went down to Mexico on a due diligence trip for the US bank I used to work for. We were talking to the CEO of the Company we were dealing with. He was an American expatriate. He was telling us how inevitable it was to pay bribes if you were stopped by a traffic cop. I had to object and told him that I have never paid a bribe to a policeman in Mexico (or elsewhere for that matter). True this may mean you’ll lose a full morning, but bribing is definetely not compulsory and is not as pervasive as some people think.

3. “If you’re not a part of the top few percent of the population in most of the world outside of europe and north america, you’re completely screwed.”
Not really. I know plenty of people who are not fortunate enough to be in the top echelons of Mexican society and know for a fact that they live happy, productive lives.

Why is that your sentiment, may I ask?
Do you have an issue with legal immigrants?
Cheers,

I thought speaking something other than English in the US was impolite. But I can see that your French is pretty good. Unfortunately I can’t say the same about your manners.

Definition of citizen:
1 : an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman
2 : a member of a state b : a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to a government and is entitled to protection from it
3 : a civilian as distinguished from a specialized servant of the state

You’ll see that the original meaning of the word citizen is “an inhabitant of a city or town”. I am, in that sense a law abiding citizen. Of course, I am not a US citizen in the sense of 2 above, and I clearly stated this in my post as well as subsequent posts.

Cheers,

Hi,
I appreciate your answering my post to somebody else. It would be great if you could also answer the post that I addressed directly to you.
Cheers,

If nothing else, I have been polite with everyone. Including those who are insulting me or my country.

If Mexico is "your country", Why don't you try to do something to make it better? You don't like the way you're treated in the US, then go back and work on your own country. Not a hard concept.