Tammy Faye Messner, Gay Icon

Slate ^ | July 23, 2007 | Michelle Tsai

[Marysecretary]

We’re all in process, ML. None of us is perfect yet. We need to know His Word so that we don’t get fed propaganda, etc. I’ve learned over the years to give people a bit more grace since HE gave ME grace sooo many times. I don’t know her heart. Nobody but God does. It’s up to Him to judge her, not me.

[MEGoody]

Christians should minister to homosexuals. That said, I would say that Tammy Faye did not choose HER ministers very well.

Yes on both counts. Tammy Faye forgot that 'ministering to homosexuals' doesn't mean you put them in positions of power in the church.

[MEGoody]

HE knew her heart. YOU do not.

Indeed. But I do wonder, if we adhere to a postiion that is clearly unbiblical, will our Lord not correct us when we stand before Him?

I'm not saying she wasn't saved. But I do know that people who cling to sin and refuse to repent are not to be put into positions of power in the church. They can be once they have repented, but not before. Since it seems clear she didn't have an issue with homosexuals holding positions of power in the church, I would expect that the Lord would say "I love you Tammy Faye, but you made this error, and you need to know that so that you can be perfected." (I mean, we cannot be perfected in heaven as we are promised we will be if we cling to erroneous beliefs once we get there.)

[Greg F]

I was listening to a Christian radio station and one of the guys on it said that they recieved some incredible number of cards, I think he said 3 million, something in the millions. I thought to myself that he was a liar or the worst guy at math ever. Then the show ended and I found out it was someone speaking on behalf of a Graham crusade.

Just a funny little lesson for me in not judging others too quickly.

[Marysecretary]

Who of us will stand before God perfect and always biblical? Because homosexuals were the ones who ministered to her, I can understand why she felt that way. She’ll have to stand beford God and account for her sins. I’m not the one to judge that and I won’t. I have enough sins of my own (LOL).

[LaineyDee]

What a wonderful story!

Years ago... I used to watch Jimmy Swaggart.... and I learned tons about forgiveness from his teachings. When he fell....there were people who left the church, disillusioned and heart-broken.

One of my friends snidely asked what I thought about all those he hurt by his actions...and the first thought that came to me was, "If they walked away from God because Jimmy Swaggart fell, they had their eyes on the wrong man anyway".

[MEGoody]

Who of us will stand before God perfect and always biblical?

Probably none of us. But some things are more glaringly unbiblical than others. Putting people who cling to sin and refuse to repent into positions of power in the church is rather glaringly so.

I can understand why she felt that way.

I can too. But as I have learned from personal experience, our feelings do not excuse clinging to unbiblical truth. (For a long time, I fought against the wives submit to your husbands thing.)

I’m not the one to judge that and I won’t.

We all make judgments every day. The key is to do so rightly (John 7:24).

[longtermmemmory]

She is dead, the homosexual claim the dead. (matches their deathstyle)

Seriously, notice how prominent men have their wives soft pedaled into being homosexual sympathyzers.

This is just an effort to confuse her christian sympathy with an endorsement of the homosexual choice since she is dead.

[LaineyDee]

Each of us has strong points and weaknesses - many of them due to genetic makeup, others due to life experiences and some just due to flaws in our mental abilities.

You're right. I was saved 27 yrs ago... and I have to say..... I was not a very nice person. It took a series of shattering experiences to bring me to my knees. When I did... I never looked back. I've had struggles in my faith just like most people but I know where my strength comes from....and it's not human.

I had to deal with all the old friends and my spouse mocking me as "the Jesus freak".....and the church members shaking their fingers in my face because I wasn't "good enough". It shocked and hurt me at first...but I knew what the Lord had done....so I just stood in faith. Eventually, everyone either settled down and accepted it....or they removed themselves from my life. I can't live for what others think of me in this life.... I can only strive to be the best I can be... for God (and I don't always pull that off!)

I guess the moral of the story here is......"But for the grace of God......go I." :)

[Greg F]

I was in Texas when Swaggart apologized on TV. My grandmother said, and I quote, “He’s bellerin and bawlin like a newborn calf.”

Heh.

Don’t mess with Texas wimmin.

[MarkL]

We have faith in God, but we kept our powder dry.

Or,

"In God we trust. All others pay cash!"

Mark

[Badeye]

Another classic.

[LaineyDee]

My grandmother said, and I quote, “He’s bellerin and bawlin like a newborn calf.”

LOL!! I'd say that's a pretty fair description... :)

[Elsie]

Keep your eyes on Jesus, not humans. They will fail you every time.

THAT guy!!???

I've heard that HE was a 'friend' of sinners and publicans!!!

And that He even TOUCHED a leper once!

[Elsie]

 

Christians should minister to homosexuals.

 

Ok!!!

 

Genesis 13:13       Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

 

Psalms 12:8      The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

      More?

 

Isaiah 3:9   The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b  Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

 

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

---

---

2 Peter 2

 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 4.  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,  putting them into gloomy dungeons  to be held for judgment;
 5.  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
 6.  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 7.  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
 8.  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
 9.  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
 10.  This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature  and despise authority.   Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
 11.  yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
 12.  But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
 13.  They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

---

 

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
     Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

---

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape.....

Genesis 13:13       Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

 

Psalms 12:8      The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

      More?

 

Isaiah 3:9   The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b  Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

 

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

---

---

2 Peter 2

 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 4.  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,  putting them into gloomy dungeons  to be held for judgment;
 5.  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
 6.  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 7.  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
 8.  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
 9.  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
 10.  This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature  and despise authority.   Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
 11.  yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
 12.  But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
 13.  They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

---

 

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
     Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

---

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape.....

[Coldwater Creek]

Sooooo? I never implied that Jesus was not a friend of sinners. My point in case that you did not get it was that, Tammy Faye Bakker Messner was shallow spiritually.

[Dinsdale]

Hardly a surprise. Jim was closeted IIRC. (He never admitted so, but I believe it.)

[ClancyJ]

That is the wonderful thing about the Lord’s creation and His power. All of us have the power to “see” God’s creations, no matter where we live or our teachings. If we look, we can see God’s creations and how masterfully they were made. Only a fool would come to believe it is all circumstance.

So, even without any teachings, we can understand that there is something that created this place. It is a first step to God and then with an open heart we will find the way to Him if we really want to.

Just look at nature - see how the animals each know to care for their young, know how to make their nests. This is all the masterful work of God and it shows love since each is so very different but masterfully make for their lives here. Then just look at an insect and see how it is made for its life. Then look around at the beauty in a flower, a dog’s eyes and the wonderful loyalty a simple animal provides. Then see the beauty of the design in all of it.

A true loving artist’s handiwork and it was given for man to be over.

If we can see this - what else is there to see and understand? This is just the very beginning.

We should never let man take this path to God away from us by man’s actions. Man is a mere ant, we are looking for the Creator of the universe and the absolute beauty is that we can talk directly to the Master of the Universe through prayer.

And then, some prefer trash and the dwelling in the gutter to looking above at the Master and what He offers?

[Saundra Duffy]

She’s a gay icon because she was sweet, understanding and loving toward gays and they felt her acceptance and love. I always liked her. I don’t care what they say; she was a sweetheart.

[Greg F]

You wouldn’t close up the prison ministries. Nor would you refuse to minister to those who are having sex out of wedlock.

It’s one thing to condone, lift up, or enable, another to minister and offer what you can to help bring a person to God. I do not regard homosexuality as a uniquely heinous sin. We talk to murderers in the prisons. Should we shun the homosexuals? The only difference I think is that in this culture the homosexual is being told that the sin is ok, that it’s not wrong. So it’s even a more difficult bridge to cross. But then, there is the cross isn’t there?

To be direct, it’s God’s to judge, ours to witness for our faith. I do not think we should let anyone who is openly sinning be a member of our church, or a pastor, but we should surely make them feel welcome at services and be open to them personally.