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The international aspects consist only of the folly that the world is better off with an Iraq in chaos if the U.S. is properly humbled than with a peaceful and independent Iraq with the U.S. triumphant.

Have either of you considered that the Dems sincerely believe that we should work to understand "why they hate us"? If the issue is framed as one that fundamentally embraces appeasement, then victory in Iraq does nothing in the WoT, other than to demonstrate that we can subdue a militant insurgency.

It isn't about libs regaining power per se, it's about libs existing in another universe. IOW, they really DO believe their kumbaya ... and they want to exercise this emotion by spreading the love via US foreign & domestic policy.

That's what makes them dangerous. It's easy to counter calculating evil geniuses; it's the naive human shields that are so hard to understand.

An excellent point, actually. What most strains this willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the doctrinaire progressive is the straightforward rejection on the part of the Islamists of every single tenet of progressivism, and the open admission - more of a proclamation, really - that progressives, like everyone else, must submit to Shari'a. (The Communists were always careful to avoid this sort of thing during the Cold War.) I don't see many progressives who really believe they can be talked out of this notion. I do see some who are refusing to face the fact. When their own countries are taken over they tend to become refugees, sadder but wiser.

I used to know an Iranian fellow in precisely that situation. His lament was "They said they would cure the corruption. How could we have known?" I never really replied with the truth that he should have because they told him so well before they took over. Seemed cruel under the circumstances, but it's a fact.

Lenin and Bolsheviks were the only party during the WWI to openly advocate for their country (Russian Empire) to lose the war. They even shamed the fellow revolutionaries in Europe for not being properly internationalist.

So far I did not hear anybody on the American Left openly advocating and calling for the defeat. But I agree that too many of them are comfortable with the idea of humbling the hyperpower. I did see the talks that its not healthy for the world to have a single super/hyper power, and its better to have a multi-polar world.

I don't doubt the sincerity of their belief "that we should work to understand "why they hate us"? I heard the father of the beheaded Nick Berg saying that he see nothing comforting about killing al Zarqawi - his son's murderer, that if asked, he would be against executing him, and in any case its was Bush's fault. So there are sincere apologists. Still, it does not explain how one can consider himself to be pro-women, pro-gay, pro-freedom of expression, pro-human rights and effectively align himself with forces that will subjugate or worse all that dear for him, and be against forces that do fight for his own stated goals. Its indeed a parallel universe.