Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!
Posted on 08/11/2007 5:12:12 PM PDT by lightman
Outrage as US Lutherans Ease Rules on Pastors in Gay Relationships
The largest Lutheran body in the US has caused outrage in the wider Christian community as it controversially decided not to punish homosexual clergy who are in sexual relationships, according to an announcement made on Saturday.
by Daniel Blake Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2007, 19:50 (BST)
The largest Lutheran body in the US has caused outrage in the wider Christian community as it controversially decided not to punish homosexual clergy who are in sexual relationships, according to an announcement made on Saturday.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) passed a resolution at its annual assembly urging bishops to refrain from disciplining pastors who are in “faithful committed same-gender relationships”.
The resolution was passed by a vote of 538-431.
A day earlier, attendees voted down a measure that would have ended a ban on non-celibate gay clergy. But Saturday’s vote means those who violate that policy can no longer be tried or punished.
Phil Soucy, spokesman for Lutherans Concerned, a gay-lesbian rights group within the Church said: “The Church ... has just said 'Do not do punishments'. That is huge.”
The 4.8-million member ELCA had previously allowed gays to serve as pastors, but only under the condition that they abstained from any sexual relations.
The conference also instructed a committee that is developing a social statement on sexuality to further investigate the issue. The committee is scheduled to release its report in 2009.
Since the ELCA was founded in 1988, the body has ordered three pastors in gay relationships to be removed from their ministries.
The announcement has greatly outraged conservatives within the Christian community who follow the historic Christian teachings, which declares homosexuality a sin according to Scripture.
Rev. Mark Chavez, leader of Lutheran CORE, a group that says non-celibate gays should not serve as pastors, called the decision “tragic”.
“This decision will be an excuse for bishops to disobey ELCA policy,” he said. “This decision does not reflect the will of the people, but of bishops and clergy who disregard God’s word.”
The gay clergy issue has become an increasingly volatile subject amongst Christian denominations – in particular the 77-million member strong worldwide Anglican Communion is on the verge of schism as it debates the controversial issue.
But please remember, this was a split vote. There are many orthodox Christians within the ELCA who are grieved and who are now determined to work all the harder to prevent further shipwreck in 2009, when this Assembly shall convene again.
Ping.
Martin Luther just rolled over in his grave.
Any church that openly embraces homosexuality like this is NOT a christian church, just a place where liberals go to play at being christian. John gave warning to churches like this in his opening chapters of Revelation.
Martin Luther, Thesis # 1, posted on the castle church door of Wittenberg, 31 October AD 1517:
When our Lord Jesus Christ said, "Repent" he willed that the entire life of believers be one of repentence.
You are right. There are many conservative ELCA that have stayed members but as the blatant agenda is enacted one way or another, I wonder what they will do. Ever heard of Word Alone Network? They have been standing against the railroad.
Every time sexuality is “studied” by the ELCA and the members react negatively to the enlightened teachings, they table the issue to a committee (stacked) for further study. They bring it back up again, same story second verse and they will continue to until everyone that remains agrees with the liberal stand.
We left about 12 years ago and it was extremely painful but the direction of the ELCA was clear and it has shown itself consistent. Back then, several main line churches contributed to “Re-Imagining” workshops which were heavy on feminist theology/apostasy. A lesbian Lutheran pastor administered communion consisting of milk and honey because it represented fluids from women’s bodies. They praised the goddess Sophia. This REALLY took place but when we wanted our congregation to make a stand by not sending any money to headquarters, they were afraid they wouldn’t get any more pastors...etc. They would rather have their head in the sand but now, I think they may be waking up maybe too late.
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The slippery slope gets a little worse. The militant homosexuals have succeeded in turning the Episcopalians and now Lutherans away from Scripture and they won't stop until they have destroyed all of Christianity.
Does this Christian denomination pass your religious test for public office?
ping.
The Spanish government is planning to punish the Catholic Church for opposing homosexuality.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1879434/posts
As one baptised and confirmed in the Lutheran Church, the only thing I can say to you is...
GET OUT!
Your fellowship is antichrist.
I visited a Missouri Synod Lutheran church recently. Got there on their communion day so din't stay for that. Was thinking about looking into joining, but doubt I will now.
The Presbyterian church I visited was also full of controversy and politics as well. It seems that anything moral and good is under attack by fiends, sexual and political these days!!!
The maddening thing is the glee with which the devilish MSM just goes orgasmic over this stuff!!!
One second slow dear FRiend. One second. :)
Got room for a Missouri Synod Lutheran Girl on your ping list, too?
We don’t suffer such foolishness, but I don’t doubt that having to fight this stuff IS right around the corner. *SIGH*
Former Lutheran bump.
I understand your loyalty to your denomination. But when you’ve finally had enough, please — come home to Rome.
Note the date at the end of the article:
"But the practical result of this principle is one on which there is no need of speculating; it works in one unvarying way. When error is admitted into the Church, it will be found that the stages of its progress are always three. It begins by asking toleration. Its friends say to the majority: You need not be afraid of us; we are few and weak; only let us alone; we shall not disturb the faith of others. The Church has her standards of doctrine; of course we shall never interfere with them; we only ask for ourselves to be spared interference with our private opinions. Indulged in this for a time, error goes on to assert equal rights. Truth and error are two balancing forces. The Church shall do nothing which looks like deciding between them; that would be partiality. It is bigotry to assert any superior right for the truth. We are to agree to differ and any favoring of the truth, because it is truth, is partisanship. What the friends of truth and error hold in common is fundamental. Anything on which they differ is “ipso facto” non-essential. Anybody who makes account of such a thing is a disturber of the peace of the church. Truth and error are two co-ordinate powers, and the great secret of church-statesmanship is to preserve the balance between them. From this point error soon goes on to its natural end, which is to assert supremacy. Truth started with tolerating; it comes to be merely tolerated and that only for a time. Error claims a preference for its judgments on all disputed points. It puts men into position, not as at first in spite of their departure from the Church’s faith, but in consequence of it. Their recommendation is that they repudiate that faith, and position is given them to teach others to repudiate it, and make them skillful in combating it." (pp. 195-196)
From: “THE CONSERVATIVE REFORMATION AND ITS THEOLOGY as represented in the Augsburg Confession and in the history and literature of the Evangelical Lutheran Church” by Charles P. Krauth, D.D. (1871).
My Father was a Lutheran and I can say that he would not be amused.
452nd Heavy Bombardment group, 728th squadron
I'm a proud member of the WELS and am disgusted that the ELCA even holds Luther's name in their title.
more apostates
Huh? You lost me.
Although I am a WELS member, the Missouri synod is a fine choice, one that I would choose if a WELS were not nearby.
The ELCA just lost half its members. It may take a few years, but they just joined the same Hellish path the Episcopalians have taken. Evangelical and Catholic churches will reap the benefit of new members, and the ELCA churches will have plenty of space in the pews.
Well, yeah, if you say that gay relationships are okay, then you gotta expect them to have sex... and you have to include pastors in that list.
Thanks, I hadn’t read that. I do know that C.S. Lewis wrote extensively about it (without using the term) in “The Screwtape Letters” and other works.
Going to be some tough days ahead for all.in my town, the Episcopals split off and joined the Anglicans over it.
“We all sin. Most sins are equal in the eyes of God.”
The difference here is that the liberals claim they aren’t sinning at all, and that despite what the Bible says, gay sex should be celebrated, not condemned. I can hear St. Paul raging right now.
Spain.....weren’t they the ones that pulled out of the Iraqui alliance after they were bombed by Islamists?
As a Catholic, I believe that their is only One Church and it appears that many Protestant denominations are self-destructing and that this will lead many to return to the Church. However, it still breaks my heart to see what my Protestant brethren are having to endure.
>>>>I visited a Missouri Synod Lutheran church recently. Got there on their communion day so din’t stay for that. Was thinking about looking into joining, but doubt I will now.<<<<<
As a former ELCA(ALC then) I became a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). LCMS is a very conservative and bible based church. Whereas the ELCA believes the bible contains the Word of God, the LCMS believes it is “THE WORD OF GOD”.
btw, you may not have been allowed to take communion unless you talked to the pastor ahead of services. Always best to ask first. Some pastors are very strict about that.
The ELCA has gone over to the dark side. too bad.
Can I ask everyone a question? In all seriousness. What does denomination have to do with anything?
I am neither Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc.
I consider myself a Christian. All denominations have their politics and their controversies. All have their saints and sinners. Denomination to me means following the Word of God based on how that denomination interprets it. All are going to be wrong about one thing or another when face to face with God.
Personally, I prefer to leave denomination and religion out of it and try my best to have a relationship with the Father (which is what he wants most from us). The Spirit will lead you to the truth if you seek it in truth.
Interesting how so many “Christian” denominations are willing to conform their Biblical teachings to what’s going on in society today. Wonder what they’ll do when enough people in society relegate Jesus Christ to the role of a historical nutcase ???
“We all sin. Most sins are equal in the eyes of God.”
“The difference here is that the liberals claim they aren’t sinning at all, and that despite what the Bible says, gay sex should be celebrated, not condemned. I can hear St. Paul raging right now.”
Oh, I realize that, and agree with you. However, you have to also realize you have multiple sins here. The first is the homosexuality, the other is defiance of the Word. Still sin.
The reason for my previous post was my question: What other sins are the bishops encouraging? I believe this is a question that they should answer.
Yep, they bought into the old fallacy of feeding everyone else to the alligator and hoping that he eats you last.
Well stated, lightman. My brother is one such pastor. I am looking into attending the Lutheran CORE National Gathering in September.
My fear, however, is that many orthodox will have abandoned ship by 2009, giving the revisionists an even stronger presence at 2009 CWA. But I can't say as I blame anyone who leaves at this point, for I may very well be among them.
Please add me to your Lutheran ping list.
As best I can tell, the secular humanist/moral relativist/atheist left has in one way or another determined that EVERY ONE of the Ten Commandments is "outmoded" and therefore irrelevant.
/s
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron...
You can share a pew with Obama!
That's one of the left's favorite strategies, get their opponents so disgusted that they stay home.
These Pastors that are leading His flock astray are worse than those that stray. And when they face their maker, it will be well known to them.
He should leave this synagogue of Satan and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. The ELCA has been on a radically liberal path for decades now. The five Solas have been forgotten and repentance has been rejected. Time for your brother to shake the dust off his feet and shepherd his congregation to a church where Christ is still the chief shepherd, Where His word is not negotiable being recognized as the very words of God and where pastors take up the office of the keys and dare to discipline the apostate and unrepentant.
There are times when one must not leave a church, there are times when one may leave a church and then there are times when one must leave a church - this is the latter.
>>>>Can I ask everyone a question? In all seriousness. What does denomination have to do with anything?<<<<
I agree with you in many respects, though there is the exception of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which both have legitimate claims to being the church Jesus established on earth through Peter. If that’s the case, who are you or I to break away from that Church and declare ourselves to be the final interpretation of scripture?
I’m neither Orthodox nor Catholic, though I do believe that revelation continued beyond the Bible and that the messages of the saints are relevant to our lives. It’s one thing I distinctly like about their message and one where I see a failing in my own denomination/belief system.
I consider myself a free lance Protestant and am now with an Evangelical Presbyterian church. A bit of a Catholophile, even if there are certain humps I just can’t quite get over...
Sorta’ like the 2 Billion that the Catholic church has had to pay out in recent years over their own “sexual perversion” problems. All denominations have their problems, Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalians. No denomination is without blemish.
I was raised a LCMS Lutheran. Martin Luther as a monk and scholar recognized that our salvation was by grace. we cannot earn it by acts or paying indulgences. He never denied the catholic church, it denied him. He did not want a church to use his name as a church designation.
Luther's catechisms (the small one and the large) are the most positive statements of faith you can find. The small catechism was used to teach people to read as well as a guide to God’s saving grace.
Luther insisted that gospel be preached in and read in the native tongue so that the faithful could hear directly from Our Lord.
I am happy for your faith and believe in the Roman Catholic(universal) Church just as I am happy for those in the Greek and Russian Orthodox (True) Church.
Christ finds his own and through faith in Him, The Father grants us His grace. No Christian denomination can lay claim to being the only way to salvation.
Amen!
Does truth exist? If it does, then some denominations are closer to it than others. And I’d say these Lutherans have just jumped off the cliff.
Taking your comments to a logical conclusion, what does it matter if you are mormon (LDS), baptist, or shinto? As long as you feel good about yourself...except that many of us believe truth is important.
You say you “try my best to have a relationship with the Father” How do you describe the Father? Is He a real person, or just whatever you think or feel like worshiping?
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