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If I have been unclear, I apologize. Of course atrocities committed by both sides are by definition unacceptable.

My comments with regard to the death of the baby were not intended to downplay the tragedy of the event, but were rather with reference to the fact that the accounts do not indicate that anybody ever intended a baby to die, or indeed that any of the attackers were necessarily aware that a baby was present or in danger. That is quite a different thing from intentional and premeditated murder as was committed at MM.

I’ll try to sum up my viewpoint so we can both get back to our lives:

You seem to be very interested in assigning moral equivalency for the two groups of actions, the mob attacks on Mormons and MM. My entire point is that MM was worse, both in number of deaths and in the cold-blooded and treacherous way it was carried out. While there was much hollering about “extermination” by both sides in MO, the relatively low number of people actually killed indicates that both sides shrank back from actually attempting any such thing. At MM, OTOH, the attackers did indeed exterminate the wagon train.

You, of course, have every right to disagree with this conclusion. And the fact that MM was to some extent a revenge attack, as opposed to being unprovoked, does put some weight on your side.

I have also tried to point out that some unknown percentage of the attacks on Mormons such as Joseph Smith and Parley Pratt are quite understandable based on their known actions and the morality of the time, leaving religion completely out of the issue. IOW, religious bigotry or persecution is not necessary to explain them, since messing about with another man’s wife or daughter was a dangerous activity for any man at the time.

Yet these attacks are generally portrayed by Mormons as motivated entirely or primarily by religious bigotry and hatred.

Fair enough. I have no ancestors who were involved in the MMMassacre but feel the shame and guilt based on being a member from the same church. (Not to digress but It shames me that Harry Reid claims Mormon status in the same way I assume it shames some Catholics that Kerry claims to be Catholic). I do have ancestors that died on the plains so that obviously colors my view of the history. It is a chiefly untold story outside of Mormon circles.

>>>the relatively low number of people actually killed indicates that both sides shrank back from actually attempting any such thing.

This is what I contend is the untold story. There is a mass grave site in Winter Quarters with over 600 people mostly under the age of 5. It was the intention of the mob to drive them out and force death upon them. It's why it was done in the middle of winter contrary to the peace treaty signed and after they had confiscated the Mormons weapons.

If in the MMM they had instead of executing them just burned their wagon supplies, took their food and clothes and left them to die on the plains (in winter) would you really arguee that it was much less of an atrocity?

I guess I just find it hard to let go of. Its like the Church said in thier official apology. Nothing justified the murder at MMM. IMO, also nothing justified the Mass Grave site of 600 people at Winter Quarters.