The War as We Saw It (a pessimistic view from Iraq)

The New York Times ^ | August 19, 2007 | BUDDHIKA JAYAMAHA, et. al.

[Mr. Silverback]

Maybe these guys are part of the democrat propaganda machine.

Maybe they're just clueless. I mean, they're basically saying "To much American buitt-kicking, let's go back to the Rumsfeld plan." Not smart.

[Mr. Silverback]

Can the delicate sensibilities on FR absorb anything critical about Iraq? Or will these guys just be dismissed as liberals?

Can critics of the war ever compare bad reports from Iraq with good reports from Iraq and get the full picture, or are y'all too busy whining that FR is too "delicate" to swallow every bit of defeatist propaganda?

I'm not saying anything about their politics, but after the Beauchamp case, nobody should be assuming that every soldier is truthful about Iraq. About 99.999% of them are (and probably these guys are) but there are some liars and political activists in their ranks and we know that for certain now.

[Mr. Silverback]

It seems strange for people here to be critical of anecdotal stories, and the policy implications of those stories, from the troops on the ground.

I'm not critical of those things and doubt many Freepers are. The point is that this ran in the NYT. anything running in the NYT should be taken with a grain of salt no matter who wrote it.

[Crim]

I seem to remember a muslim solder fragging his fellow soldiers...

This comes as no surprise....they need a sargents report to pre-empt the generals report...

You watch...senators will have this crumpled article in their hands demanding to know why petreas is lying...

Hell...they pushed an article the other day that said “betreas” in the frickin headline...

The left only loves soldiers who denounce war...

[Future Snake Eater]

three words: summary court marshal.

Don't be ridiculous.

While I'm very reluctant to side with the 82d ABN on ANYTHING in Baghdad (I worked hand-in-hand with them around Sadr City for 3 months), these guys are pretty much dead on.

Acknowledging reality is not the same as treason, no matter how badly so many on this board wish it to be otherwise.

[MNJohnnie]

Describe for me the political, crime and economic details of every city in the 4 states around you.

You cannot do it, yet because you people spent time in Iraq, you think you are “experts”. You are no more “experts” about Iraq then you are of the local conditions around your home.

Notice also the key thing here. WERE in Iraq, not ARE in Iraq.

So why should I listen to the crybabies and not these guys?
By your standard they are “experts” too.

http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/

What the people are doing is acting as unpaid, unwitting propagandists for Al Qeda. All they are doing with this perpetual whining is help undermined this country’s morale in a fight it has got to win. They are giving propaganda aid to the people in the Democrat Party doing everything they can to lose. They are NOT helping the mission with this sort of drivel. They also demonstrate a pretty complete ignorance of how the surge is working.

War sucks. That not news. Crying about how bad it suck while you were there does NOT help “fix” the matter. They should simply quit whining and deal with it.

To say “Well I was in Iraq and it sucked so everything in Iraq sucks” is childish and ignorant.

Sorry having to fight terrorists doesn’t fit in with the pathetic Neo Isolationist Cold War era “Realists” dogmas.
Time to grow up and realize that the comfortable assumptions and pat dogmas of the 09-10-01 world are dead. Quit clinging to their corpse.

[MNJohnnie]

namely, the widespread use of lethal and brutal force.

Napoleon in Spain, the Nazis in Eastern Europe and the Russians in Afghanistan tried these "brutal" tactic. How did it work out for them? That right, they all lost, badly. Way past time the Dinocons learn Counter Insurgency is not Total War.

[TSchmereL]

“not impressed with the latest effort by a Freeper to undermine the war effort?”

Are you saying that I posted this column to “undermine the war effort?”

I have nothing to say negative about our war effort. You can check my history of comments here on FR. I do not post comments or threads that “undermine the war effort.”

I think we should be able to discuss dissenting opinions about the war in Iraq without accusing each other of “undermining the war effort.”

I think these soldiers’ view is overly pessimistic. However, some of their observations deserve to be analyzed. I do appreciate your contribution towards that effort.

[RightOnline]

Interesting take. So, you don’t feel that the ‘average GI’ would have the brain pan sufficient to craft such observations without “outside coaching”?

[Mr. Silverback]

Apologies for the friendly fire. Mistook you for one of the surrender monkeys I had a tussle with last year.

[Mr. Silverback]

Way past time the Dinocons learn Counter Insurgency is not Total War.

I like to say that they all own copies of "Zapp Brannigan's Big Book of War."

[Blue State Insurgent]

You may not want to undermine the war but these donk grunts sure the hell do. Their “observations’ seem to be nothing more the democrat talking points.

I find it hilarious that they call the former regime a ‘Baathist Tyranny’ then go on to complain about disbanding Saddam’s terror army and not forgiving Baathists fast enough.

[Blue State Insurgent]

They sold out. You may think that’s smart but I don’t.

[valoreo]

These soldiers speak of “2 million Iraqis in refugee camps in bordering countries and two million more that have been internally displaced and now fill many urban slums”. My question is where did they get their information from and when did they have the time to do their research being they are from the 82nd Airborne division.

[George W. Bush]

I thought this might interest you.

No doubt it is anecdotal. But the details of how the Iraqi Army generals are commanding a polyglot of militias loyal to their own agenda is probably true. The citizenry, helpless and terrified, would like us to stay and protect them.

You can see why our soldiers want to help these folks. But like so many Islamic hellholes, it is the military and religious elements that will conspire to destroy any freedom and establish another dictatorship, the choice being an Arab dictator who is an Arab nationalist or one who is a theocrat.

I do feel sorry for ordinary Iraqis. But they don't have the courage to stand up to these people. We may get the police under controls but the private militias inside the Army will be a constant danger to us, the Iraqi people and the new government.

[ga medic]

Maybe they get their information from the same place that you do. They do have television and news there.

[George W. Bush]

While I'm very reluctant to side with the 82d ABN on ANYTHING in Baghdad (I worked hand-in-hand with them around Sadr City for 3 months), these guys are pretty much dead on. Acknowledging reality is not the same as treason, no matter how badly so many on this board wish it to be otherwise.

But we just love "the troops". At least until they say something we don't like.

A couple of posters on this thread are embarrassing. I know they never served and they're trashing these guys. I thought it was a good account of what one group saw. I think we have other instances where soldiers have written of some ordinary Iraqis who have been just great and they thought that in their area, things were going well.

I think it's fine to have such editorials as long as we have a good balance from different areas. There are some positive stories too and those should be published prominently the same way this one was.

I saw an interesting bit on Tucker Carlson today where he was interviewing a retired colonel on this editorial. The colonel said that while officers can face very serious discipline for such public writings, that enlisted men can and do write almost anything they want to, including about their own commanders. Nothing in the Uniform Code of Military Justice (article 88) forbids their writing such opinions. Officers and even retired officers can be tried for such writing but not enlisted men, meaning that many of these retired generals and admirals are getting away with speech that is not legal when they criticize the president and his war strategy. Anyway, with pervasive email access throughout Iraq, we are hearing from the soldiers and support troops in a way and far more directly than in Vietnam or in other wars. Tucker, to his credit, was criticizing some of their editorializing when they wrote about "the vast majority of Iraqis feel..." and pointed out that these soldiers were editorializing about a general opinion within Iraq that they couldn't speak to and had no way to measure. Tucker wasn't rejecting their right to opine but thought part of it was painting with far too broad brush for anyone to use, either pro-war or anti-war.

As I look through the thread, I notice many comments from those who think that our enlisted have no freedom of speech and shouldn't have such freedom. I saw relatively few signs that very many on the thread actually went and read the article. The problems in command for the Iraqi generals, the very real sympathy for the plight of ordinary Iraqis, there was nothing subversive or un-American in the op-ed.

[unspun]

This just in!:

Seven Democrats found in U.S. military.

[sam_paine]

Janus-faced role of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Army

Ummm....haven't finished reading this yet....but...references to "Janus?"

Is it possible that this rings a little "coached" to me? Any reason they wouldn't have used, say, "two-faced?"

[M Kehoe]

Reading this, and not one of them was shot at. Pussies.

5.56mm