India to award world's biggest warplane deal on merit

The Economic Times,India ^ | 29 Aug, 2007

[JasonC]

I know what you are talking about, and the Bisons are still just MiG-21s upgraded to not be quite so antediluvian. They remain guess what, MiG-21s. No, they are not better than MiG-29s or F-16s, all of which have comparable equipment and vastly superior airframes, engines, and performance envelopes.

[Constantine XI Palaeologus]

Good to hear about the MiGs. Didn’t realize the F-16s were so far behind the pack. Makes me kinda sad since they’ve been such a good multirole platform over the years. I did think they had pretty good legs though, especially with the new conformal tanks they have. Plus, aren’t the Super Hornets kinda big and expensive these days?

I don’t think the Block 60 F-16s lacks for anything really tech-wise vis a vis the Super Hornet. It’s not like India would be getting F-16As or anything.

[Constantine XI Palaeologus]

Ah, gotcha.

Don’t think we’ve reached that day just yet, but I agree that it’s coming up fast—who knows, maybe the F-22/F-35 combo will be the last for manned fighters. But then again, maybe manned aircraft will persevere.

[Candor7]

The Mig would be the wrong choice for India, simply because its enemies are client states of Russia and China, , and the evolutionary goodies will not devolve to India, but to Iran, Pakistan and China.

I believe that India is making this a "merit" contest so that it can mollify the Sovietskis.

Anyhoo, thats my guess.

They will take US hardware of a Eurofighter.

I favor the Gripen, but India would need to beef up its airborn refuling capacity.

We also , as many forget, live in a nuclear age, with enemies who will use their nukes sooner or later. For those nations who have a centralized deployment, just a few nukes will destroy their airforce, or even a few hundred conventional cruise missiles, properly placed. The Gripen is the only modern fighter which can thrive under conditions of remote deployment, a lesson that has to be relearned in almost every war fought.

[DesScorp]

No way we should let them manufacture Super Hornets. We don’t even let Australia do that yet.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Well did the Aussies ask for license production???they only leased 24 Super Hornets.Most big weapon deals today involve license production & even technology transfer of some sort.

[Gengis Khan]

” No, they are not better than MiG-29s or F-16s, all of which have comparable equipment and vastly superior airframes, engines, and performance envelopes.”

Airframes, engines and aircraft performance are just one small aspect of an overall combat system. Modern air combat has gone way beyond these parameters. Compared to the Pakistani older version of F-16s, Mig-21 Bisons have vastly superior radar, BVR weapon suit and other on board computerized and electronic warfare systems. The difference is between having them and not having them. A modern combat aircraft isn't simply about engine and airframe. Pakistanni F-16s block A/B versions will not even stand a chance to come close up for a fight where it will be able to used its superior agiliy and airframe advantage.

And I am not even considering the combination of AWACS and Mig 21s against F-16s. In which case even the modern F-16s block 50/52s would be easy targets.

Even otherwise Mig-21 has greater speed then an F-16. A skilled pilot would know how to use it to its advantage. It the reason why USAF F-15 pilots (by their own admission) found it difficult to lock on the the Mig 21s at the Cope India exercise.

Why else do you think Pakistan (with China’s help) still want to buy/built modern day clones of modified Mig 21s even when it has (or can buy) F-16s?

[Gengis Khan]

Super Hornets may still be a choice for the IAF.

F-16s are best at short ranges. It lacks nothing in terms of technological capability but F-16s just dont have the range to penetrate China. Chinese Sukhois have far greater range and higher payloads doesnt diminish its agility as it does with F-16s.

[JasonC]

Sorry, that's is all just nonsense. You can put improved components in any plane. The reason anyone uses MiG-21s for anything is they already have tons of them and are trying to salvage some value out of them.

[Gengis Khan]

You are not making sense. Pakistan isnt buying scrap Mig 21s to derive some salvage value out of it. Pakistan and China have been designing and building brand new modernized clones of Mig 21s such as the F-7 MG, F-7PG, FC-1 and JF-17s. These are not only cheaper alternative to western fighters like the F-16s but also comparable in performance.

“You can put improved components in any plane. “

Yes, and the difference is between putting it and not putting it on the plane. For the sake of our argument, my point was Indian Mig 21s have those systems and PAF older F-16s A/B dont. An old but uptodate modernized and well maintained fighter is any day better then a costly and poorly maintained fighter with no modern systems or MLUs.

[Candor7]

The India Air Force may have an historical edge on everyone:

According to historical documents ( Vedas), Brahmins had taken to the air in Vimana, milennia ago.

So we might see some creative add ons to whatever aircraft India purchases:

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The Vimanas - The Ramayana describes a Vimana as a double-deck, circular (cylindrical) aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the speed of the wind and gave forth a melodious sound (a humming noise?). Ancient Indian texts on Vimanas are so numerous it would take several books to relate what they have to say. The ancient Indians themselves wrote entire flight manuals on the control of various types of Vimanas, of which there were basically four: the Shakuna Vimana, the Sundara Vimana, the Rukma Vimana and the Tripura Vimana.

The secret of constructing aeroplanes, which will not break, which cannot be cut, will not catch fire, and cannot be destroyed.

The secret of making planes motionless.

The secret of making planes invisible.

The secret of hearing conversations and other sounds in enemy planes.

The secret of receiving photographs of the interior of enemy planes.

The secret of ascertaining the direction of enemy planes approach.

The secret of making persons in enemy planes lose consciousness.

The secret of destroying enemy planes.

Sanskrit texts are filled with references to Gods who fought battles in the sky using Vimanas equipped with weapons as deadly as any we can deploy in these more enlightened times. For example, there is a passage in the Ramayana which reads: The Puspaka car that resembles the Sun and belongs to my brother was brought by the powerful Ravan; that aerial and excellent car going everywhere at will.... that car resembling a bright cloud in the sky.

".. and the King [Rama] got in, and the excellent car at the command of the Raghira, rose up into the higher atmosphere."

In the Mahabharatra, an ancient Indian poem of enormous length, we learn that an individual named Asura Maya had a Vimana measuring twelve cubits in circumference, with four strong wheels. The poem is a veritable gold mine of information relating to conflicts between gods who settled their differences apparently using weapons as lethal as the ones we are capable of deploying.

Apart from 'blazing missiles', the poem records the use of other deadly weapons. 'Indra's Dart' operated via a circular 'reflector'. When switched on, it produced a 'shaft of light' which, when focused on any target, immediately 'consumed it with its power'.

In one particular exchange, the hero, Krishna, is pursuing his enemy, Salva, in the sky, when Salva's Vimana, the Saubha is made invisible in some way. Undeterred, Krishna immediately fires off a special weapon: 'I quickly laid on an arrow, which killed by seeking out sound'.

Many other terrible weapons are described, quite matter of factly, in the Mahabharata, but the most fearsome of all is the one used against the Vrishis.

The narrative records:

Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashesthe entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas.

It is important to note, that these kinds of records are not isolated. They can be cross-correlated with similiar reports in other ancient civilizations. The after-affects of this Iron Thunderbolt have an ominously recognizable ring. Apparently, those killed by it were so burnt that their corpses were unidentifiable. The survivors fared little better, as it caused their hair and nails to fall out.

Perhaps the most disturbing and challenging, information about these allegedly mythical Vihmanas in the ancient records is that there are some matter-of-fact records, describing how to build one. In their way, the instructions are quite precise.

In the Sanskrit Samarangana Sutradhara, it is written: Strong and durable must the body of the Vihmana be made, like a great flying bird of light material. Inside one must put the mercury engine with its iron heating apparatus underneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky. The movements of the Vimana are such that it can vertically ascend, vertically descend, move slanting forwards and backwards. With the help of the machines human beings can fly in the air and heavenly beings can come down to earth.

http://www.crystalinks.com/vedic.html

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http://bharathgyan.com/vimana.htm