Posted on 09/05/2007 10:53:33 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
Indonesia sub plans no sweat for navy
Cameron Stewart and Stephen Fitzpatrick | September 06, 2007
INDONESIA'S plans to buy Russian Kilo-class submarines will notcause Australian navy submariners to break out into a coldsweat.
Although the two navies are unlikely ever to find themselves fighting each other, submarine experts say that if they did, Australia's Collins-class submarines would be likely to send the Kilos to the bottom of the ocean.
"The Kilos are less technically advanced than the Collins-class, and the Kilo does not match up in either capability or performance," one submariner, who asked not to be named, told The Australian yesterday.
"In their day, the Kilos were a leap forward in technology, but best of luck to them if they tried to match it with the Collins today. I think they would lose."
Indonesia has reportedly agreed to buy two Kilo-class submarines from Russia, and hopes to purchase up to eight more. If so, it would be the first time a significant, potentially rival, submarine fleet was based on Australia's doorstep.
The Kilo and the Collins are of similar size and share a similar range, although the Collins has greater firepower and usually carries more torpedoes and mines than the Kilo.
The Kilos are showing signs of age, having been first commissioned in 1982.
The greatest advantage the Collins would have over an Indonesian navy Kilo is that the Indonesians are not familiar with modern submarine warfare and would probably be a relatively easy target for their better-trained and better-resourced counterparts in the Australian navy.
Indonesian Defence Minister Juwono Sudarsono yesterday hailed increased military and business ties with Russia, telling the world to expect similarly strengthened links between Jakarta and neighbouring giant China.
(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...
The technological inferiority of the Kilo is one thing, but what would really allow the Aussies to kick the crap out Indonesian (or anyone else’s, for that matter) Kilos is one simple fact: the Aussies are damned good sailors.
Indeed. Aussies in Kilos would make quick work of Indos in Collinses.
Although the two navies are unlikely ever to find themselves fighting each other, submarine experts say that if they did, Australia’s Collins-class submarines would be likely to send the Kilos to the bottom of the ocean.
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I guess the dive problems on the Collins have been fixed ??
I know that the Indonesian Air Force is a joke, and I guess that the same can be said for any high tech gear in the Navy.
See, remember what I said about the sale of technology to Iran in that other thread...
Sure, you can have some very capable equipment...But unless you ar trained and have capable people running the show...You are just another target waiting to go bye bye...
Russia is just trying to make a buck...They’ll sell to the aboriginies if they thought they could make money off of it...They don’t care if they implement the technology agressively and correctly...
“Russia is just trying to make a buck...They’ll sell to the aboriginies if they thought they could make money off of it...They don’t care if they implement the technology agressively and correctly...”
But maybe they should. After all, it can’t be good for sales to have militaries armed with Russian/Soviet weapons trounced every time they go up against Western militaries with Western weapons. Look at the MiG-29, by all reports a pretty decent airplane, but it’s consistently underperformed when the going got tough. I can’t even recall an instance where a MiG-29 had an actual kill. At least it’s contemporary, the Su-27/30, has a handful of kills (notably the MiG-29).
Aren’t they at least embarrassed by the incompetent use of their (albeit export quality) weapons? It makes it seem as if their weapons are proverbial spitballs. Now, a T-80 or T-90 isn’t going to compare favorably to a M1-A1, Leo2, Challenger 2, Leclerc, etc. on a one-to-one basis, but then again, it’s not meant to be in the same class. However, that doesn’t mean that they should be completely ineffective.
That is true to a certain point...Numbers do give you some kind of edge...But in this case I believe over the last 20 some odd years the west has countered the numbers with highly effective intelligence and tactical response to the numbers of enemy units issue...
Plus the training of our side of the equation is almost insurmountable...
Just my experience and opinion...
They have a done a pretty extensive upgrade for the whole class-don’t know if any problems exist still-
http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/1999/collins.html
The Mig-29 was meant as a backup for the SU-27 with it’s short range & light weight.The variants which did see combat had poor radars,weapons(no capable BVR missiles). & were already at a disadvantage against an Enemy who had better situational awareness & better weapons.Sure it’s disappointed,but NATO pilots who ‘fought’ against German Mig-29 rated it highly at close range-so did Aussie F-18 pilots against Malaysian Mig-29s.The type has improved considerably since but realistically,it would still be at a disadvantage against a superior enemy.
I hope the Aussies don’t get too cocky.It’s likely that these Kilos will come with the new Russian SS N-27 Club cruise missile-which comes in a variety of land attack & supersonic anti-ship variants.Not an easy weapon to deal with.
Why would Indonesia want subs? Who is threatening them?
TANKS for the link,,,There was a thread on the Collins
problem awhile back...
They have unsteady ties with China & Australia-besides being too close to the like India & Singapore.All this while having the world’s largest archipelago with lots of oil/gas reserves.Subs would make up the offensive arm of their otherwise small name.
Don’t over rate Collin, it’s just as fault ridden as the Kilo.
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