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To: blam
"Mr Phillips said: "When we talk about the Armada, it was the Turks who saved us because they held up the Armada after a request from Elizabeth I."

Never heard of this one, and I'm not finding anything searching for it.... anyone know where this is coming from? The only delays I know of for the Spanish Armada were: (1) it took longer than hoped to build and outfit all the ships needed, and (2) the intended commander died and had to be replaced (through no doing of the Turks).

The only legitimate revisionism I know of on this topic is that the Spanish Armada was not defeated quite as catastrophically as many people assume, i.e., most of the main warships survived to return to Spain and the ships lost were mostly less significant. Also, bad weather had more to do with the Spanish fleet's problems than any decisive victory by the English. STILL, the fact is that Spain was unable to transport the army they wanted to bring from the Netherlands to invade England, and Spain's fleet ended up sailing around the British Isles and returning to Spain at greatly reduced strength. That's a victory for the Brits however you cut it, and I sure don't know what the Turks had to do with it!!
13 posted on 09/25/2007 7:05:58 PM PDT by Enchante (Democrat terror-fighting motto: "bleat, cheat, retreat & defeat, we suck on liberal teat")
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To: Enchante
On revisionism regarding the Spanish Armada.

Yes, certainly a scholarly piece of research would be appropriate. Regrettably I have read many years ago, that Queen Elizabeth 1st, was notably careful with her treasury. The sea dogs ran short of powder and cannon balls. I did read that the heroes of the British navy were not paid off after the Armada was dispersed. They roamed around sea ports, desperate for food.

All this is something that I am unable to source at this point. We were taught in the English schools of a shattered remnant of the great galleons limped back to Spain. Even the Irish were against them as they rounded the British Isles( so it was said).

Trevor Phillips is a black Labour politician born in London. He actually defended free speech though against muslim indignation re cartoons in Europe. (source Wikipedia).

Meanwhile I return to Winston Churchill's, RIVER WAR. The defeat of the Islamic forces in the Sudan 1898.

26 posted on 09/25/2007 8:29:39 PM PDT by Peter Libra
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To: Enchante; blam
"anyone know where this is coming from?"

England's defeat of the Spanish Armada 400 years ago changed the course of European history and immortalised Sir Francis Drake, but new research suggests he had help from an unexpected quarter -- the Turks.

An academic argued on Tuesday that the Armada had been weakened before it even set sail for England because the Spanish had been forced to keep some ships in the Mediterranean to deal with the troublesome Turkish navy.

"If the Armada had been bigger it would have taken Britain," said Dr Jerry Brotton.

"The Armada was fatally weakened by having to leave some of its ships in the Mediterranean," added Brotton, a lecturer in Renaissance Studies at Queen Mary, University of London.

The destruction of the Armada in 1588 ensured the survival of the Protestant faith throughout Europe, cemented England as a sea power and ushered in a decline in the fortunes of Spain.

The battle made a national hero of Drake, who according to legend -- if not hard historical fact -- insisted on finishing his game of bowls as the Armada approached.

Brotton said England had deliberately set out to enlist the Turks to harry the Spanish and tie down their forces.

"Correspondence shows that Walsingham (Queen Elizabeth's spymaster) used diplomats to keep the Turks fighting the Spanish," he told Reuters.

But the view that it was the Turks and not Drake who should be accorded the battle honours is not shared by all historians.

Dr Simon Adams, co-author of "England, Spain and the Grand Armada" argues the Ottoman Turks were not threatening the Spanish in the Mediterranean.

"The Walsingham letter had been sent in 1584 or 1585 and although England might have hoped the Turks would cause the Spanish problems, nothing really happened," he told Reuters.

"The Turks were not really doing anything (against Spain) in 1588. They were busy in the near east," added the University of Strathclyde academic.

Adams said the Armada failed because the expedition was poorly planned and the English had an effective navy helped by favourable weather.

Also interesting

It was in 1563 at the Battle of Lepanto that the Spanish Armada decimated the Turkish navy. This meant the end of Turkish control in the Mediterranean. It must not be forgotten as well, that the royal house of Spain intermarried now with the Hapsburg Dynasty in Austria, so that if the Turks were besieging Vienna, Austria, then Spain had to fight on the side of the Austrians. It must not be forgotten that the Turks were "parked" outside the gates of Vienna for 200 years!

It is also interesting for me as former American student that we were never taught about the Battle of Lepanto of 1563, but we were taught about the English/Dutch victory over the Spanish Armada in 1588, because it was a victory of the Protestants over the Catholics! But such a milestone victory of the Catholics over the Islamic Turks which saved Europe from being overwhelmed by Islam went untaught in American schools because this time, it was a Catholic victory.

38 posted on 09/26/2007 7:42:38 AM PDT by jpsb
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