Posted on 10/04/2007 11:12:27 AM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin
State Rep. Marlin Schneider has been raving for years to his fellow legislators about an attack on the unprotected American spy ship USS Liberty in 1967 by Israeli fighter jets and torpedo boats that killed 34 and injured 171.
The Wisconsin Rapids Democrat has repeatedly tried to get a resolution through the Assembly asking Congress for an investigation of the attack. But Israel says the attack was a case of mistaken identity during the Six-Day War against several Arab states, and Schneider has been met with boredom and occasional sneers from his colleagues. Some say the Wisconsin Legislature has no business considering an international matter.
This week, however, the Chicago Tribune published a comprehensive report that included reviewing now-unclassified documents and interviewing people who were on the ship and nearby in the Mediterranean at the time.
The men still living who were on the ship during the attack want a full-fledged investigation. The Tribune account presents some evidence to support their contention that the Israelis knew what they were attacking and that the nearby 6th Fleet first sent out planes to intercept the Israelis and then called them back.
Some contend that Israel feared the U.S. spy ship might intercept plans to widen the war, or that the attack might draw the United States into the war if the U.S. thought Arab forces had hit the ship.
Israel apologized and paid reparations to survivors and family members of the dead and made a payment to the U.S. government for the loss of the ship.
Schneider became interested in the matter in 1998, when he got an e-mail from an Oshkosh man asking whether the federal government could be petitioned about an investigation of the attack.
"I thought it was a no-brainer, an attack on an American ship in which a young sailor from Fond du Lac, Duane Margraaf, was killed," Schneider said.
"But someone warned me that this would be viewed as an assault on the nation state of Israel. As soon as you say something about it, the Jewish lobby crawls all over you, and they call you an anti-Semite."
His resolution went nowhere, and the Assembly decided not to petition the federal government about anything, after which Schneider's fruitless resolutions asked other states to petition Congress for an investigation.
The men who served on the Liberty believe that the attack was deliberately carried out by the Israelis.
"I talked to some of the guys who were on the ship who said that Israeli planes flew over for hours on a sunny day when the American flag was clearly displayed and even tipped their wings," Schneider said.
"But all the sudden they launched a violent attack. A distress signal was sent to the Sixth Fleet, which sent planes to intercept the planes attacking, but Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara literally called the planes back. They were not allowed to defend the ship."
Despite the Tribune investigation, Schneider doesn't think that Congress will do anything about the matter.
2. You weren’t declared an anti-semite for taking the word of Americans over Israelis.
How Very DISHONEST/DISINGENUOUS of you to try and Twist that.
You were declared an anti-semite for your using adjectives traditionally stereotyped at Jews (”Typically Snooty”) and substituting/plugging in “Israelis”.
[[[From Dershowitz: ‘When Legitimate Criticism of Israel crosses the Line’..
7. Emphasizing and stereotyping certain characteristics among supporters of Israel that have Traditionally been used in Anti-Semitic attacks, for example, “pushy” American Jews, Jews “who control the media,” and Jews “who control financial markets.”]]]
One can see this simplistic substitution tactic quite commonly on Arab and other boards as well— now it’s “Zionist Bankers” or “Greedy Zionists”.
Yours a Classic.
And you didn’t let me down— you dragged in Pollard for good measure. Perfect really.
Your Logic about taking the Crew’s word, is Fallacious. The Crew Could NOT have known what was in the mind of their attackers. Thye have NO evidence- only feel victimized.
For the 10th Time- Friendly fire victims oft are in disbelief and feel it was intentional.. but they do NOT and CANNOT know.
What we do from Both Israeli and NSA Radio communications is the Israelis did NOT know the ship was American.
Splash 1!
Everyone has missed the bigger point here:
He’s a WISCONSIN STATE REPRESENTATIVE.
We don’t pay him to sit in Madison and bloviate about foreign policy. He should STF up and do his job: Managing the state of Wisconsin, which unless I’m mistaken, has no foreign policy component.
‘A “Battle Flag unfurled” on a ship moving Slowly with No wind, Bristling with antennas.. in the Heat of battle?
The day before the Liberty Israel straffed one of it’s own Tank Columns near Jenin.’
There was a breeze that day, there was no ‘misidentifying’ the ship.
And its laughable to make a comparision with a tank column and a ship at sea in this context.
Friendly fire for an hour? With follow up runs?
I don’t buy that.
Buy this
Wounded British soldiers condemn US ‘cowboy’ pilot
March 31, 2003
Guardian
British soldiers injured when a US “tankbuster” aircraft attacked their convoy, killing one of their comrades, hit out angrily at the “cowboy” pilot today.
Troops wounded in Friday’s attack accused the A-10 Thunderbolt pilot of “Incompetence and Negligence” while others privately called for a manslaughter prosecution.
The comments came as America’s most senior military official vowed to make it his quest to stop future “friendly fire” tragedies.
General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, apologised for the deadly error by the A-10 in southern Iraq.
[....]
But the crews of the two British forward reconnaissance Scimitars which were attacked by the A-10 could Not Contain their ANGER.
Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, speaking from his bed on the RFA Argus in the Gulf, said: “I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.”
LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading vehicle, described to Patrick Barkham of The Times how the deadly A-10 attack began.
THE PILOT MADE TWO SWOOPS. “I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again,” he said.
“There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke.”
He added: “I’ll never forget that A-10. HE WAS ABOUT 50 METRES off the ground. HE CIRCLED, because he can turn on a 10 Pence.
“HE CAME BACK AROUND. He was no more than 1,000 metres away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 metres away when he started firing.”
On the back of one of the engineers’ vehicles there was a UNION JACK....”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,926237,00.html
“With follow up runs?”
Troops’ anger over US ‘friendly fire’
BBC
By Patrick Barkham
On the RFA Argus in the Gulf
Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing “no regard for human life” and accused him of being “a cowboy” who had “gone out on a jolly”.
{CAPTION]The US A-10 aircraft Circled and came Around for a SECOND ATTACK
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.
The so-called friendly fire incident, 40 kilometres (24.8 miles) north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on RFA Argus, the UK forces’ hospital ship in the Gulf.
Another soldier who had been in one of the two destroyed Scimitar light reconnaissance tanks, manned by the Household Cavalry, escaped without injury.
Nursing shrapnel wounds and burns, the three injured soldiers, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, spoke of their bewilderment and anger.
They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a LARGE UNION FLAG on Another Machine Union flag in the five-vehicle convoy....”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2901515.stm
I dunno, I figure it’d be a no-brainer for some other country’s ship to wave a big American flag to scare off the Israelis. And if you’ve been told by your commanders that the ship is Arab then of course you’re going to press your attack. It was standard practice for ships to impersonate vessels of other nationalities to lure in or scare off enemy ships.
IIRC the Liberty was “outside” the normal chain of command because it was a spy ship. Or am I confusing it with its sister ship the Pueblo?
No, the Israelis made a calculated decision to cripple the Liberty to effectively blind the U.S. Navy from what they were doing during the war's sea operations.
Here's what Secretary of State Dean Rusk had to say about the whole affair in his memoirs:
"We also lost 34 American lives when, on June 8, the fourth day of the war, the U.S. communications ship Liberty came under air and naval attack. We were meeting with President Johnson in the White House situation room, considering the implications had the Soviets or Egyptians attacked the ship, when we received word from Tel Aviv that Israeli forces were responsible. That didn't please us, although an Israeli attack on Liberty was far easier to deal with. But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."
Rusk's memoirs: "As I Saw It" (W.W.Norton, 1990), p. 388)
Yep.
And do you know the size difference between a flag on a armoured vehicle and a battle flag on a US warship?
Do you understand the difference between trying to determine who’s friend or foe on the ground in a desert filled with both friend and enemy armour units....and one ship by itself ten to fifteen miles at sea?
There is no valid comparision in my opinion found here.
Yep. Multiple attacks, and under the circumstances we are supposed to believe this ship broadcasting on every ‘guard’ frequency for the entire time, screaming for the Israeli’s to stop the attack, screaming for air support, wasn’t heard by the Israeli’s who were fighting a war of survival?
Its never been remotely logical to say it was just an ‘accident’.
Not when it goes on for hours, and features repeated attacks.
It is a good reminder that there are no “friends”, per se, of our country, just other countries that have the same goals from time to time. When those goals diverge, other countries will do what they deem to be in their best interest. Too many folks forget that.
Mine a Very Valid Comnparison.
As Noted in the Attack against Britain..
The A10 was only “50 Metres” away and missed a “Large Union Jack”.
The Relative view/field of vision size of Union Jack probably even larger for that reason.— and then his SECOND RUN.. which you made a to-do of but were answered on.
It was a Calm day by all accounts and the ship moving slowly, the US Flag probably Slack on that Ship Bristling with antennas.
The Pilot diverted from his strafing mission (and with NO bombs for Ship sinking), wasn’t looking for a Flag Per se.
AS HE SAYS in my posted article on the last page, he was Just Looking for the Large White Cross on the Decks of His/Israeli Military ships and there was none.
Assuming, as they all knew there were NO US ships in the area, that’s all he needed, and thought it was an Egyptian ship fleeing that front from which explosions and smoke were in the distance. (Israel was fighting a 3 Front war - a tough trick)
The Pilot Also explains that the ship was smoking heavily after the First pass, and he/they even thought it was an Intentional Smoke Screen.
Ergo NOT much to see on subsequent passes.
So much for all your BS- ALL of it— one by one.
And I might say, you ignored all of it as it was ALREADY posted.
Smoke in your eyes? Or will you make 3rd or 4th pass at facts already presented as you didn’t see them?
NEXT!
How childlike.
This works with people that don’t know the differences as I and other posters have detailed extensively on this thread.
In other words, try it on a five year old.
Next....(chuckle)
MAny of us provide you with facts, you refuse to address them as your previous post demonstrated.
You want to pretend on the internet you ‘won’ something...well, thats pretty revealing all by itself.
There is HUGE difference between attacking a flagged 200 foot plus warship in broad daylight on the calm open sea, and attacking a much smaller 20 foot armored personnel carrier in the heat of a confused battle with lots of smoke and dust in the air. Apples and oranges dude, and if you can't see that, then you need to read up on your military history.
The Israeli Cabinet had gone into emergency session during the Incident fearing the ship wasn't even Egyptian as currently thought by most, but might be RUSSIAN; part of a large scale intervention on the Arab side.
Psycho USS Liberty Conspiratorial Slanders
[......]
Major General Mordechai Hod, the commander of the Israeli air force, asked the pilot by radio if any flag was visible. The pilot reported back "I see no flag or other signs of identification." Members of the crew find this a major point of contention, but regardless of that fact, there must be accountability for being in a battle arena, and assessments are made by the air force command, based on the pilot's observation, the course of the ship, the reported speed and the evasive running of the ship, location, etc., and the impression was that it was a hostile ship.
At 2:06, the pilots began their straffing runs and straffed the U.S.S. Liberty four times. Fire had broken out on the left side of the ship. Two more aircraft were diverted, this time Super Mystere jets en route to a bombing mission over the Mitla Pass in the Central Sinai. The were carrying napalm bombs, which are not suitable for attacking targets at sea but it was decided to use the aircraft anyway. The Mysteres made two bombing runs, but only one bomb hit the ship.
As there was no return fire from the Liberty, the lack of a response was puzzling and the lead pilot flew low enough to notice a P-30 painted on the hull. He then dropped to only ninety feet above the water line and this time noticed CTR-5 on the hull. He said he saw NO FLAG. He was told to report on damages and leave the target area. At 2:15 the air force controller in central operation dispatched two helicopters to the area to pick up survivors.
Meanwhile the torpedo boats had arrived at the scene. The flagship flahed the message, "What ship?" But, the U.S.S. Liberty replied "AA" meaning "Identify yourselves first." That was really dumb. Here they are listing, enveloped in smoke, heavily damaged and their captain is telling the torpedo boats to identify themselves first?
Eleven years before, during the Sinai campaign, exactly the same exchange had taken place between an Israeli destroyer, the MV Yaffo, and an Egyptian ship, the Ibrahim-el-Awwal. Oren, who was a young offer on the Yaffo's bridge at the time, remembered the incident well. If he had any doubts that the burning vessel ahead of him was Egyptian, they were now dispelled.
While he was deciding whether to attack, a burst of machine gun fire erupted from the ship's forecastle. It seems that a seaman apprentice on board did not hear the Captain's "hold-your- fire order" and fired several volleys at the torpedo boats.
Oren still hestitated until he consulted the Israeli navy's book identifying the ships of the Arab navies and concluded that the ship in question was the Egyptian suppply vessel EL QUSEIR. One of the other captains of another torpedo boat came up with the same identification.
And, at 2:37 Lt Col Oren gave the order to attack the ship. This was after being fired upon from the Liberty. At 2:43 advancing with rapid cannon fire, the topedo boats fired torpedos. At least one torpedo hit the ship. When the T-204 crossed the ship's bow, one of the officers aboard noticed the letters GTR on the hull of the ship and Oren immediately issued the hold-fire order. It was 2:47.
No Cooperation No Help Wanted
At 2:51, Oren radioed back to command headquarters that the ship could be RUSSIAN. Rabin called an EMERRGENCY MEETING of his advisers to discuss the POSSIBILITY of LARGE SCALE SOVIET INTERVENTION but at 3:20 Oren notified headquarters that the ship was not Russian, it was American. At 3:30 the news was conveyed to Commander Castle, naval atache in Tel Aviv. Israel offered to help with the wounded. The offer was rejected. One must remember when Marines were wounded in Lebanon Israel offered then also to treat the wounded and that offer was then also rejected - causing additional loss of life. There must be "accountability" for that blunder also.
The attack on the U.S.S. Liberty was not done with malice, but was a genuine understandable mistake, like many which are often made in battle, and which could have been avoided if the Liberty had stayed out of harm's way [as we learned later was the intention of the State Department and the Chiefs of Staff].
The problem is a Lack of Accountability. Take the case of the old cargo ship off North Korea sent to spy. Who sent the Peoblo? It was the skipper who the Court of Inquiry wanted to blame it on. It wasn't the skipper's fault.
And, who recommended the sending in of Marines into the middle of the Lebanese civil war with no clearer mission than to establish a "presence?" It wasn't the Marine Corp, it was President Reagan, and his advisers. And, to his credit, Reagan did take responsibility for the airport bombing.
Adm. William J. Crewe, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff told the world it was all Iran's fault that the Vincennes shot down the airliner, but failed to mention the ship was in Iranian waters at the time. Deniability, yes; but, what about U.S. Naval "accountability?"
[....]
See the Below Link for the disspelling of Many Myths and anti-Israel (cough) attacks.
http://pnews.org/art/ussliberty.shtml
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.