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The Values Test [Dobson Will Back Third-Party if Giuliani is Nominated]
The New York Times ^ | October 4, 2007 | JAMES C. DOBSON

Posted on 10/04/2007 10:19:26 PM PDT by Soft Bigotry

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To: Ol' Sparky
That's not horrible thinking, but I imagine that's what the Dems were thinking when the Republicans had the White House and the Congress and they gained seats the first time around. Of course, that ended up disintegrating after 6 years; events have a way of throwing odd statistical "certainties".
51 posted on 10/04/2007 11:44:34 PM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: chaos_5

If Rudy gets the nod, I’ll support him because I can see his good points and his record as mayor of NYC. He’s not my fav anymore, and he used to be before I found FR. He’s not a social conservative really but better him than Hillary or Obama or Edwards or any of the dem candidates. At least he won’t suck up to Islam and the religion of hate and will support our military. He may not even sell out our country if we keep on him. I voted for Bush and still like what he’s done in some areas but he lost me on this illegal immigration nonsense. At least Bush is fighting the WOT and gave us a conservative SC. That wouldn’t have happened if Gore or Kerry were POTUS. He sucks on border issues to say the least but again better than what we would have had if he weren’t POTUS.


52 posted on 10/04/2007 11:44:48 PM PDT by Twink
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To: Ol' Sparky

You have to be kidding. You think that Hillary Clinton would be better than Rudy?


53 posted on 10/04/2007 11:48:04 PM PDT by Dustbunny (The BIBLE - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
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To: Dustbunny

If Hillary gets elected it is the people who voted for her who get the credit. It is not the people who voted for another candidate who should be blamed. In the case of Ross Perot there is nothing that says that if Perot wasn’t running that all his votes would have gone Republican. That is only hypothetical thinking and to use that analogy is wrong.


54 posted on 10/04/2007 11:50:14 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: scarface367
“If you think that, you really need to examine Rudy’s foreign policy views versus Hillary’s. The real world doesn’t agree with your views.”

It would not be possible to examine either of their views. Both are politicians and will say what ever their constituents wants to hear.

And, though I understand that YOU are THE world view, you need to rethink this...

Hillary doesn’t give a crap about what you or I think. She will be driven by the fact that if she can’t demonstrate that she can handle the role of Commander and Chief as the first female president in 200 + years, she will be the last one for the next 200 years.

Think about it...

55 posted on 10/04/2007 11:52:07 PM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: chaos_5

The mainstream media wants a Rudy/Hillary race. That way, they get what they want no matter which one wins.


56 posted on 10/04/2007 11:52:11 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Soft Bigotry

Simple. In one case we’re all together inside our fortified city, and the evil enemy we all recognize is outside the gates, ready to attack with her hordes. In the other case we’re all together inside our fortified city, and an evil enemy — supposedly one of our own that some mistakenly think is a friend — is within, organizing his supporters to come at us from behind as we focus on the enemy outside.

The real argument here is whether or not Giuliani is an enemy to our cause(s). I firmly believe that he is; I suspect that you feel differently. But if he is an enemy to our cause, it’s obvious that an enemy within is more dangerous than an enemy outside the gates — just as civil wars are much more more bloody and dangerous than even huge wars fought against outside forces.


57 posted on 10/04/2007 11:53:47 PM PDT by ellery (I don't remember a constitutional amendment that gives you the right not to be identified-R.Giuliani)
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To: taxesareforever
Sorry, but I really think you are wrong.

So, we can agree to disagree.

Just don't complain when Hillary wins the election because so many voted for a third party candidate and you can be sure that those who voted third party would have voted Republican because they would be following Dobson's lead.

58 posted on 10/04/2007 11:55:00 PM PDT by Dustbunny (The BIBLE - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
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To: Ol' Sparky

You are right of course. Rudy would be the worst possible president. Worse than a dem...


59 posted on 10/04/2007 11:59:17 PM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: cherry

“.....we don’t get our way we would rather have the whole entire country ruined and infiltrated and controlled by Satanist then to either shut the heck up or support the most reasonable, conservative, rational, logical and respected person out there and that is not the Hitler.....”

I’m sorry, but you seem to be suggesting we don’t actually get to choose who we want to vote for. Is that an accurate assessment?


60 posted on 10/04/2007 11:59:33 PM PDT by COgamer
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To: ellery

If you want to use military metaphors, wouldn’t we want as many people on our side as possible?

If you want to insist Rudy’s a traitor in our midst, fine; you’ve picked a side. I just can’t promise you it’ll be the victorious one.


61 posted on 10/05/2007 12:02:07 AM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: babygene

“Indeed... I’ve been saying this for months. Hillary may very well be the toughest with the WOT. She’s going to want to prove she has testicles... She may even overreact.”

I believe, of all the candidates, she is the most likely to nuke any country that attacks us... It’s just in her personality to want to completely destroy those who oppose her. Unfortunately, that includes us.


62 posted on 10/05/2007 12:02:31 AM PDT by COgamer
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To: Soft Bigotry

Don’t be so blind... Rudy truely IS a traitor in our midst.


63 posted on 10/05/2007 12:04:03 AM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: babygene
It would not be possible to examine either of their views. Both are politicians and will say what ever their constituents wants to hear.

Actually it is very easy to see Giuliani's views. Read his views in the September/October edition of Foreign Affairs. This is not a journal geared towards constituents, but rather academics and those in foreign policy. In other words, those that would tell if he was just pandering. John Edwards also has an article in it, and while he isn't Hillary, you can assume his views would be similar. The difference in each article is significant.

64 posted on 10/05/2007 12:04:19 AM PDT by scarface367 (The problem is we have yet to find a cure for stupid)
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To: Ol' Sparky
You're comments are 'right on the mark'!..

It's amazing that the Rudy-apologists canNOT understand that!!!

65 posted on 10/05/2007 12:07:41 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: Soft Bigotry
Dobson needs to seek the face of the L-rd.

He needs to address issues and not people.


66 posted on 10/05/2007 12:09:27 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: babygene

Black-and-white thinking is often helpful - but not always.

If you want to see Rudy as the antichrist, or like cherry, consider HRC a “Satanist” and “Hitler”, then I suspect no one’s going to change your mind.

Good luck with that third party.


67 posted on 10/05/2007 12:10:50 AM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: COgamer
“I believe, of all the candidates, she is the most likely to nuke any country that attacks us... “

I don’t have a problem with nuking our enemies, but that’s just me. I offered my (correct) assessment to the idiots that think Rudy would be the toughest with the WOT.

Now let’s get busy and nominate Fred.

68 posted on 10/05/2007 12:11:07 AM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: SoConPubbie

Seriously?

Your reply wasn’t to my post but I read it so I’m replying.

I’m a Christian. Heck, I’m a practicing Catholic, I follow the catholic doctrine and not some willy nilly thing that changes each year.

My moral principles are important but I understand the rest of the country doesn’t follow my moral principles thus I will support any candidate who most closely follows my principles on this country continuing its existence. And I will continue to follow the moral principles as taught in the Bible and in my Faith as a Catholic (catholic doctrine editors of the Bible shared by all prostestant religions) and teach my children such principles. I can’t change the world but I can parent my kids.

So say it’s Rudy and Hillary or Obama or Edwards or anyone on that side but those are the 3 who will be. So, it’s unchristianlike to vote for Rudy but it’s okay to allow Hillary/Obama/Edwards to win? I completely disagree.

I also disagree that voting for Rudy would question my Christianity/Catholicism. Same as Romney, who I’ve read is sorta for gay marriage and all, and McCAin - too long to list, and Thompson, there’s his issues. So if we Christians vote for any of these candidates or the nominee, we’re not Christians?

I would be so happy if any candidate came out against abortion, in all situations. We see where that got Bob Casey of PA (former dem Gov.). Same for Santorum, former senator of PA.

I’ll vote for Rudy if he gets the repub nom BECAUSE he’s better than any dem running. And at least we have a shot with him. I won’t vote for him in the primary because of my Faith. I also won’t vote 3rd party yet, losing battle right now, nor will I vote for any dem nom, ever.

The only shot we have of limiting and eventually doing away with abortions is to elect presidents and congressmen who don’t support murdering babies on demand. And electing presidents who will appoint SC Justices who are conservative. We will never get a shot with any of the current dems but we do have a shot with a repub president even one who isn’t a social conservative imo. So we have Romney, McCain, Rudy, Thompson, none really social conservatives imo. I like Hunter and more and more Tancredo. But I will vote for the repub nom even if it’s Rudy or Romney or McCain, et al. It doesn’t make me less of a Christian or a Catholic, it makes me politcially smart, imo. I’m all for a grass roots movement and I will support it but I don’t see it helping in this election. I’m not willing to sacrifice our military and this mission for ideals. I want a POTUS who will support the military at all costs and none of the dems will do that.


69 posted on 10/05/2007 12:11:50 AM PDT by Twink
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To: babygene

Don’t be so blind... Rudy truely IS a traitor in our midst.
~~~
I thought the Bug~Zapper~Thread and the FR~Mission~Statement
Made it clear ...


70 posted on 10/05/2007 12:15:55 AM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: Twink

Perfectly reasonable thinking.

Most people fail to see the coalitionist nature of representative politics; Rudy would still have the support of Republicans in Congress and the backing of a national party, however weakened.


71 posted on 10/05/2007 12:18:40 AM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: frankiep

Well said. That’s my attitude too. I understand the single issue votes and those who cast them. I once voted pro life during an election thus voted for a candidate who had no chance of winning. My Dad, pro lifer, told me I threw away my vote. And I did.

I’m not willing to cut off my nose to spite my face and I’m NOT willing to sell out this country over one or two issues. I want change in my party but I also want a repub to win in 2008 because at least we have a shot then.

I will vote for whomever is the repub nom, like it or not. I won’t throw away my vote/vote 3rd party, to make a point that will be lost on the majority of this country. I’m not willing to chance this country/POTUS to make a point. I’m not willing to end up with a Hillary/Obama/Edwards/whomever dem POTUS for a point. We have to change this party, repub party, imo and give it a few years but not this election year. It’s too new imo.


72 posted on 10/05/2007 12:23:37 AM PDT by Twink
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

Does that mean FR agrees with Dobson and will go third party, then?


73 posted on 10/05/2007 12:23:37 AM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: Dustbunny

You are so right!


74 posted on 10/05/2007 12:28:18 AM PDT by Timbo64
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To: Dustbunny
I think that Dobson must be a closet Democrat if he pulls a stunt like this.

Even giving credence to goofballs like Dobson indicates our political discourse is sadly lacking.

75 posted on 10/05/2007 12:29:52 AM PDT by JennysCool (Don't taze me, Bro!)
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To: babygene

Rudy can beat Clinton in 2008.


76 posted on 10/05/2007 12:30:02 AM PDT by Timbo64
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To: frankiep

I will not vote for Rudy the liberal.


77 posted on 10/05/2007 12:30:15 AM PDT by MamaB
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To: frankiep

Same here and I have problems with those mentioned but better them than the others.


78 posted on 10/05/2007 12:31:00 AM PDT by Twink
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To: babygene
Rudy would be the worst possible president. Worse than a dem...

Can't let that go by ... How would a New York City Mayor and noted former federal prosecutor be worse than Hillary?

79 posted on 10/05/2007 12:35:03 AM PDT by JennysCool (Don't taze me, Bro!)
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To: Dustbunny
I think that Dobson must be a closet Democrat if he pulls a stunt like this.

You obviously have never considered the fact Giuliani as the nominee would be another step down the path of socialism for the GOP that it has been taking for several years at the expense of Conservatives.

If he backs any candidate other than a Republican he will be pulling a Ross Perot and giving the election to Hillary Clinton.

The GOP has been pulling a Ross Perot against Conservatives for many years replacing core conservative values by adopting a more socialistic ideology in line with the socialist Democrats in an attempt to appease and seek compromise with their party. Doing so has deliberately alienated Conservatives to the point it is splitting the GOP and creating a potential situation for a socialist, be it Clinton or Giuliani, to become President. The GOP will have no one to blame but themselves if that happens.
80 posted on 10/05/2007 12:35:26 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: Timbo64

“Rudy can beat Clinton in 2008”

I don’t think he can without the support of most of the social conservitives. I know for a fact that he would not get them all....


81 posted on 10/05/2007 12:36:55 AM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: taxesareforever

Hillary and Hillary-light


82 posted on 10/05/2007 12:37:43 AM PDT by chaos_5
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To: Dustbunny

My sentiments exactly.

I’m a practicing Catholic/Christian and I will never vote 3rd party this election. A pro-abort dem or a pro-abort repub where do we have a shot? I know my answer.

I’m a repub because I’m pro military, pro gun ownership, pro life. Pro non whiners, the govt owes me, life owes me nonsense. The dem party is socialist completely now and I will never support that. We haven’t lost the repub party yet.


83 posted on 10/05/2007 12:38:05 AM PDT by Twink
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To: Soft Bigotry
I wonder if Dobson isn’t testing his own political power here; maybe he wants to run at the top of the ticket of this third party?

It wouldn't be a third party. The GOP has incrementally moved so far to the left over the years by replacing core conservative values with socialistic principles that it and the Dems are one party ideologically. Another party would be a second party.
84 posted on 10/05/2007 12:40:09 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: JennysCool
Easy.

Liberal Republicans like JulieAnnie are much more dangerous than liberal democrats,,,

because liberal Republicans like Rudy BLUR THE DISTINCTION between conservatism and liberalism,,,

MAKING LIBERALISM MUCH MORE ACCEPTABLE!!

85 posted on 10/05/2007 12:40:48 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: JennysCool

“How would a New York City Mayor and noted former federal prosecutor be worse than Hillary?”

Easy... As a liberal republican president he would get the support for his positions not only from the democrats but many republicans as well.

On the other hand, Hillary would face the opposition of the republican party. It would be much harder for her to get anything done.


86 posted on 10/05/2007 12:42:12 AM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: Soft Bigotry

“Does that mean FR agrees with Dobson and will go third party, then?”

Let’s pray we don’t have to find out... I signed up very recently, after years as a lurker, for the primary purpose of helping wishy-washy conservatives realize how unacceptable Giuliani is even to those of us who normally aren’t that politically active. A look at the mission statement will reveal that this is not and has never been a Republican website, but one for the discussion and furtherment of CONSERVATIVE ideals. Republicans have latched onto it and muddied the waters with their sometimes false belief that party affiliation is what defines liberals or conservatives.

That definition is becoming increasingly obsolete. We’ve been voting against our own best interests, allowing others to frame the debate in terms of “Stopping the other guy” instead of in terms of “Let’s do the right thing.”

Many of us have been aligned with the Republican party just for lack of anywhere else to go. Increasing frustration, repeated backstabbings, and the endless refrain of “Just this one last time, I’ll vote for the lesser of two evils” has grown tiresome. We can’t bring ourselves to donate money to the RNC until they fix our border problems, and GOP coffers are running on empty as a result.

The divorce from the party is well under way... The problem is, it’s not conservatives that started the breach. We have consistently told the party it was headed in the wrong direction, while rewarding its undeserving candidates with our votes ANYWAY.

I don’t know if anyone will form a new third party or not. But I can assure you that if Rudy Giuliani appears on the Republican ticket I will search high and low for a candidate I feel comfortable supporting, even if its the imaginary Blueberry Biscuit Party.

I find myself increasingly unconcerned with the political fortunes of the Republican party. I want to see some policy makers with some spine, who are willing to stand up for what is right, whether or not the GOP establishment agrees with them. As of right now, that is a daydream.

We are not slaves. We don’t owe ANYTHING to the GOP. They think our votes are automatic, because they know no matter how much we complain when it comes down to it we will support them anyway. This cannot be allowed to continue. So yeah, I can’t speak for FR, but for myself - Giuliani becoming the face of the Republican party assures it is no party I plan on attending.


87 posted on 10/05/2007 12:42:18 AM PDT by COgamer
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To: Soft Bigotry; Jim Robinson

Does that mean FR agrees with Dobson and will go third party, then?
~~~

Jim will speak for FR,,,not me,,,

As he said before,,,”A Hill To Die On”,,,As I remember of course...

Read Jim Robinson’s Mission Statement for FR...NO ROOTY !!


88 posted on 10/05/2007 12:42:18 AM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: Man50D
The GOP has incrementally moved so far to the left over the years by replacing core conservative values with socialistic principles that it and the Dems are one party ideologically.

Statement like this simply show that you are basing your arguments on emotion, not facts. There is a huge difference between the parties. Your failure to recognize such shows that you have been fed talking points from who knows what source and cannot realistically look at reality.

89 posted on 10/05/2007 12:43:14 AM PDT by scarface367 (The problem is we have yet to find a cure for stupid)
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To: babygene

Why can’t the Rudy-Apologists understand that????


90 posted on 10/05/2007 12:44:16 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: Man50D

I think it could be easily argued that the country and the globe have moved more to the left;
could we have imagined even discussing same-sex marriage, for one example, not more than 10 or 20 years ago?

I’m not saying I approve; I’m just saying “look around.”


91 posted on 10/05/2007 12:46:11 AM PDT by Soft Bigotry
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To: Grunthor

I am a Republican because I am for smaller federal government, less taxes, and a strong military.

The GOP can not win without people like me or people like you. It may suck, but we will have to compromise to gain a GOP victory in 2008. Single issue voters who will not compromise = another Clinton in the White House.

I an pro military and I WILL NOT let Clinton become CIC. If Rudy is the person who can keep her from becoming CIC, then so be it.

BTW, as much as we do not like it, abortion will never become illegal again in America.


92 posted on 10/05/2007 12:47:03 AM PDT by Timbo64
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To: Ol' Sparky

I completely disagree. I too want a repub/conservative congress but NEVER Hillary in the White House.

I really don’t think Guiliani or any repub candidate, even McCain, could cause the kind of damage to this country that Hillary/Obama/Edwards can. Especially Hillary. I’d rather see the latter two than Hillary in the White House, at all costs.

Hillary is the Clinton Presidency and I think we’re forgetting just what happened to our country during that Admin.

Hillary as Pres will do more damage in 4 years, and she’d only last 4 years, than Carter did during his presidency imo. I’m not willing to chance a Hillary presidency, ever.


93 posted on 10/05/2007 12:47:27 AM PDT by Twink
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To: stockstrader
“Why can’t the Rudy-Apologists understand that????”

I don’t know. Perhaps their closet liberals...

94 posted on 10/05/2007 12:48:01 AM PDT by babygene (Never look into the laser with your last good eye...)
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To: Man50D
First of all, we will not be voting for Rudy in the primary we will be voting for Thompson. However, if Rudy wins the primary, we will vote for him for President.

We are TOTALLY against abortion, the President can do nothing about stopping abortion but we can by having laws passed in our states against it.

No way will we give the Clintons another win. We did not vote when dubya's father ran because we did not like his politics. It was a huge mistake!

95 posted on 10/05/2007 12:48:05 AM PDT by Dustbunny (The BIBLE - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
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To: Soft Bigotry
Exactly!!

The Republican Party has been moving to the left for years. If you think that the Republican Party is JUST NOT LIBERAL ENOUGH,,,,

and you want to ACCELERATE that movement to the left to achieve the liberal NIRVANA of two political parties--BOTH to the left of center,,,,

RUDY IS THE RIGHT MAN AT THE RIGHT TIME!!

96 posted on 10/05/2007 12:48:22 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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To: frankiep
If the nominees are Rudy and Hillary, and you think that Hillary won’t do far greater damage to the country than Rudy could ever do than that’s your prerogative.

A socialist is dangerous regardless of whether a person has an R or a D after their name.

Because, in reality, voting for a third party will do nothing more than split the Republican vote and literally hand the White House to Hillary on a silver platter.

The GOP has replaced its conservative base by gradually adopting a more socialistic base. The GOP and Dems are becoming one party ideologically. Another party would be the second party. The GOP has been splitting for many years thanks to the leadership always trying to appease the socialist left in the name of compromise at the expense of Conservatism. The GOP will be handing the White House to a socialist whether Giuliani is elected or Clinton.
97 posted on 10/05/2007 12:49:59 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: babygene; stockstrader

Er, um, okee dokee. Whatever.

Good luck with that.


98 posted on 10/05/2007 12:51:36 AM PDT by JennysCool (Don't taze me, Bro!)
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To: Twink
I’m a practicing Catholic/Christian and I will never vote 3rd party this election. A pro-abort dem or a pro-abort repub where do we have a shot? I know my answer.

I’m a repub because I’m pro military, pro gun ownership, pro life. Pro non whiners, the govt owes me, life owes me nonsense. The dem party is socialist completely now and I will never support that. We haven’t lost the repub party yet.

Ditto's to that!!

We are Mennonite/Christian.

99 posted on 10/05/2007 12:51:54 AM PDT by Dustbunny (The BIBLE - Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth)
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To: Dustbunny
We did not vote when dubya's father ran because we did not like his politics. It was a huge mistake!

Exactly. W's dad moved too far to the left, and he caused Perot to be an option. So now some want to AGAIN move the Party to the left with a liberal like Rudy???

Guess what? The same thing will happen.

If you want to elect Hillary by SPLITTING and DIVIDING the Party WIDE OPEN (just like it happened before),,,

while DEMORALIZING THE BASE,,,

a liberal like Rudy is the RIGHT MAN AT THE RIGHT TIME.

100 posted on 10/05/2007 12:52:06 AM PDT by stockstrader (We need a conservative who will ENERGIZE the Party, not a liberal who will DEMORALIZE it!)
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