At a U.S. Army Base, officers split over war

IHT ^ | October 13, 2007 | Elisabeth Bumiller

[vietvet67]

FORT LEAVENWORTH, Kansas: Here in this Western outpost that serves as the intellectual center of the U.S. Army, two elite officers were deep in debate at lunch on a recent day over who bore more responsibility for mistakes in Iraq - the former defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, or the generals who acquiesced to him.

"The secretary of defense is an easy target," argued one of the officers, Major Kareem Montague, 34, a Harvard graduate and a commander in the Third Infantry Division that was the first to reach Baghdad in the 2003 invasion. "It's easy to pick on the political appointee."

"But he's the one that's responsible," retorted Major Michael J. Zinno, 40, a military planner who worked at the headquarters of the Coalitional Provisional Authority, the former American civilian administration in Iraq.

No, Montague shot back, it was more complicated: the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the top commanders were part of the decision to send in a small invasion force and not enough troops for the occupation. Only General Eric Shinseki, the army chief of staff who was sidelined after he told Congress that it would take several hundred thousand troops in Iraq, spoke up in public.

"You didn't hear any of them at the time, other than General Shinseki, screaming, saying that this was untenable," Montague said.

As the war grinds through its fifth year, Fort Leavenworth has become a front line in the military's tension and soul-searching over Iraq. Here on the bluffs above the Missouri River rising young officers are on a different kind of journey - an outspoken re-examination of their role in Iraq.

[Ken522]

Ft. Leavenworth is a nice place to get assigned, unless you’re a prisoner ...

[PAR35]

Major Kareem Montague

Parents were either basketball fans, or he's a muslim, or both.

[ImpBill]

You are correct. And I thought, before the crowd gets to the thread and starts dissing the officers, all should know that Ft. Leavenworth is the home of the US Army War College, where the staff is paid to take on the issues such as these.

It is also the Institution that has taught the Principles of Mass, concerning warfare. Principles that, due to political micro-management of our wars have been pretty much ignored since and including Viet Nam.

[org.whodat]

the generals and those immediately under their grade.

[org.whodat]

the generals and those immediately under their grade.

[Let's Roll]

Didn’t read the whole thing, but intro seems to be showing, as I suspected, that the contention seems to be over how the war was fought not whether or not we should be there.

As I believe most polls etc. show, but the headlines always make it sound like half the military/citizens are flower children.

[DTogo]

Another major said that young officers were engaged in their own revisionist history, and that many had believed the war could be won with Rumsfeld's initial invasion force of about 170,000. "Everybody now claims, oh, I knew we were going to be there for five years and it was going to take 400,000 people," said Major Patrick Proctor, 36. "Nobody wants to be the guy who said, 'Yeah, I thought we could do it.' But a lot of us did."

A realist.

[ImpBill]

Excellent read. I was a, not so young, company grade officer in Viet Nam and we hand many similar discussions. And having served over there in 1970 and 71, we saw the hand writing on the wall. We knew, without saying, that we were not going be allowed to have victory (Military) in our efforts.

The bottom line was always, we swore an Oath to the Constitution.

I found the following quote pretty much summed up our feelings in those discussions:

"For the sake of argument, a question from the reporter was posed: If enough four-star generals had done that, would it have stopped the war? "Yeah, we'd call it a coup d'etat," Fontenot said. "Do you want to have a coup d'etat? You kind of have to decide what you want. Do you like the Constitution, or are you so upset about the Iraq war that you're willing to dismiss the Constitution in just this one instance and hopefully things will be O.K.? I don't think so."

[Old Retired Army Guy]

Waqr College is at Carlisle Barracks PA. Leavenworth is home of Command and General Staff College where selected Majors attend in preparation for Battalion Command at a future date.

[Let's Roll]

Didn't read the whole thing, when I remembered that the IHT is a subsidiary of the NYT, my interest deteriorated. But what I read, as I suspected it would, is that the contention seems to be over how the war was fought not whether or not we should even be there.

I believe most polls etc. also show this, but the headlines always make it sound like at least half the US military/citizens are flower children.

[T-Bird45]

Carlisle Barracks, PA is the home of the US Army War College, NOT Ft. Leavenworth.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/

http://leav-www.army.mil/

[ImpBill]

Take the time. Go to the link and read the whole article. It does indeed center around “how” the war was and is being prosecuted. But at the center of the whole thing, in my opinion, should be the point of can there be a Military only solution to War?

[ImpBill]

You are correct. My mistake. Leavenworth is where the Command and General Staff School is. Thank you for the correction.

[ImpBill]

Thanks. Been a while. My error. By the way, I love your tag line.

[org.whodat]

Carlisle Barracks, PA is the home of the US Army War College, NOT Ft. Leavenworth.

Started to point that out but didn't want to hurt his feelings. LOL

[ImpBill]

Been living with "hurt feelings" so long now that when someone new steps of to the plate, it's like water off a ducks back.

SNAFU'd

LOL

[airborne]

This story gives me the impression of a reporter eavesdropping on two officers, having a friendly argument at a local bar.

Then the reporter makes up a deceptively suggestive headline to get the story published.

This is what passes for news nowadays. Sad,really.

[T-Bird45]

De Nada, mistakes happen. Your heart was in the right place as far as your comment is concerned, your geography was just mistaken. Tag Line courtesy of Mark Steyn.

[Let's Roll]

OK, read the rest. Still think other "solutions" come after a military victory.