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To: Mrs. Don-o

No I just see people as they are, for you the standard of perfection is the idea of what Jesus was. There is no standard, in that sense, for me…that’s not to say there are no goals we should achieve or a morality to follow, just that the ideal person does not exist because we’re all different and we all have different goals.

(I actually have a very concrete morality, more rigid then Christianity even but that’s a different conversation.)

Now say that you’re right and Adam and Eve were fools. What does that have to do for us? Why should we be punished for their sins? Under what moral system can you justify someone as being sinful just as they’re born?

Finally why do you believe in all that? Cause you ‘feel’ it? Because you’ve reasoned it out? I’ve always assumed it’s because most people believe in what their parents believed.


55 posted on 10/17/2007 1:06:20 PM PDT by Raymann
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To: Raymann
"Why should we be punished for their sins? "

I say we're not being punished for their sins, we're inheriting what was heritable in terms of damage.

We neither earn nor merit what we inherit from our ancestors, neither good nor bad. If your parents both had IQs of 150+, no allergies, optimum immune systems, cheerful dispositions and symmetrical facial features, you'd likely enjoy these benfits yourself without having merited them; likewise if they had low intellectual abilities, blood disorders, a tendency to depression, and facial deformities, you, though innocent, would likely suffer similarly.

The consequences of the ancestral breakdown were just like that. They are genetic, or closely analogous to genetic. That's what we mean when we say they are part of our nature.

"Under what moral system can you justify someone as being sinful just as they’re born?"

I don't.

"Finally why do you believe in all that?"

I don't.

56 posted on 10/17/2007 1:29:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Do not accept a "truth" that comes without love, or a "love" that comes without truth. Edith Stein)
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To: Raymann
BTW, that genetic or quasi-genetic interpretation of ancestral sin/fallen nature isn't just mine, of course. Here is how the Catechism puts it:

The transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.

It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Notice that anything that is transmitted by propagation would have to be, by definition, genetic or quasi-genetic. The Catechism rightly calls it "mysterious," but one thing is clear: it is part of our nature as human beings.

57 posted on 10/17/2007 1:45:53 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Do not accept a "truth" that comes without love, or a "love" that comes without truth. Edith Stein)
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