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U. S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS DELEGATION TO THE BORDER REGION (Pro-Amnesty, of course)
Justice for Immigrants ^ | November 2007 | US Conference of Catholic Bishops

Posted on 11/07/2007 9:14:58 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

The USCCB Committee on Migration sent a delegation to the U.S./Mexico border region to study the plight of unaccompanied minors and human trafficking victims. The ever-growing problems with these populations are some of the gravest and many times most overlooked symptoms of the broken and out-dated immigration system currently employed by the United States.

The delegation met with a broad cross-section of agencies and individuals involved with or knowledgeable of these populations to gain critical insights and to understand their needs. The delegation also met with Church officials, government officials, community-based organization, and other with important perspectives. Programs established to serve these populations were also be visited.

Efforts were made to connect with the bishops and other Church leaders on the Mexican side of the border in order to better understand the circumstances and perspectives there. Particular attention was paid to potential areas of collaboration between Church programs and others in Mexico and the U.S. --------------------------------------------- The delegation's trip began in Tucson, AZ on Monday, October 23rd 2006. The second leg of the trip took place in Houston, TX from Oct. 24th to the 26th. The bishops finished their border delegation in El Paso, TX from Oct. 26th to the 29th. For a more detailed version of where and what the delegation did, go to Delegation's Itinerary.

This blog has been designed to allow its viewers to follow the bishops on their trip, to learn what they learned, see what they saw, and to hear in their own words their impressions, thoughts, and conclusions.

Tucson, AZ

Monday, October 23 (Day 1)

Today we traveled by bus from Tucson, Arizona to Mexico. We wanted to begin the delegation by seeing a key point where trafficking victims and minors pass through. We also wanted to meet migrants and ask them about their experiences.

We planned our day around a trip to Altar, Mexico, a common stopover for migrants on their way to the United States. On the way to Altar, we visited Magdalena to visit the remains of Fr. Eusebio Kino, a 17th century missionary and explorer. His crypt keeps his remains for visitors. We took this picture in front of the chapel of St. Francis Xavier.

On the way, we received briefings from service providers and advocates from several agencies in Arizona. Joanne Welter, Director of the Catholic Social Mission Diocese of Tucson and Tricia Hoyt, Director, Office of Peace and Justice, Catholic Social Service, Diocese of Phoenix, discussed Diocesan work and cross-border collaboration (Click here to listen to "Day 1 Joanne/Tricia Intro").

Erica Dahl-Bredine, the Mexico Country Manager of Catholic Relief Services discussed her work. Erica guided the delegation in Altar, and offered translation for the group. In the lead-up to our visit to Altar, she briefed us about this important migration point and how it fits within the context of greater socio-economic changes. (Click here to listen to "Day 1 Erica").

Tim Jefferson, of the Arizona League to End Regional Trafficking (ALERT), gave a general overview of trafficking issues and his group’s work around them. (Click here to listen to "Day 1 Tim Jefferson") Staff from the Catholic Community Services in Tucson and the Casa San Juan Immigrant Center also gave informative presentations about their services and the work they do with migrants, especially minors and victims of human trafficking.

When we got to Altar, we went straight to the Centro Comunitario de Atención al Migrante y Necesitado (CCAMYN), a migrant center. It opened in 2001 with the purpose of providing “an oasis in the desert for our migrant brothers and sisters.” The Center offers meals, showers, medical care, and beds to migrants. It also warns them about the dangers of crossing the harsh terrain on the way to the United States. They gave us a tour of the premises, which were well-kept and comfortable, especially in comparison to local privately-owned guest houses, which we saw a few of afterwards.

We met with the center’s volunteer staff. They described many issues they face in their work. This volunteer-staffed center sees many migrants on their way to the United States, but also many people who are heading home. They talked about the many obstacles facing those seeking a better life for themselves and their families. From bandits, to cheating smugglers, to snakes, to the extremes of the desert’s climate, the migrant’s face an extremely difficult challenge.

One result of stricter border enforcement is that professional smuggling networks arise to help migrants. Many of the smugglers also participate in human trafficking. They hold captive and put into forced labor the migrants they take to the United States. Many are kept as sex workers. Such an underground system of smuggling and trafficking thrives because of the restrictive nature of our immigration system.

We were able to talk with 6 migrants at the center. They ranged in age, with the eldest being a man of 72 years of age. He hoped to meet up with his daughter in Texas. The Bishops asked them about where they came from, and why they were leaving. They came from as far as Honduras and Chiapas in hope of finding better lives. Several of the migrants left families behind. Their situations were so bad, they had no choice but to leave to make their families’ lives better. (Click here to listen to "Day 1 Migrant Voices")

We ended the trip to Altar with a lovely mass. Our Bishops led the service.

For more information about what we plan to do on this leg of the trip see the Delegation Itinerary.

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Nogales, AZ

Tuesday, October 24 (Day 2)

We made our way back down towards the border, to Nogales to tour the U.S. Border Patrol's facilities and holding cells. The purpose of this was to learn how unaccompanied children and victims of trafficking are apprehended and processed.

On the way to the Border Patrol’s station, we received two informative briefings. Debra Fergus, of the Unaccompanied Refugee Minors program, talked about the social and legal services her agency provides to victims of trafficking and minors. She discussed the needs of foster care programs, family reunification and sponsorship. She also went into the gaps in service provisions. (Click here to listen to "Day 2 Debra Fergus")

We also heard from the Florence Project’s Children’s Immigration Attorney, Aryah Sommers (photo on the left).

The Florence Immigrant and Refugee Rights Project is a nonprofit legal service organization that provides free legal services to men, women and children detained by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Aryah talked about serving as an advocate for children. She talked about technical issues, such as types of legal relief that can be used to protect children. She also talked about the nature of working with children as a lawyer, which she termed “therapeutic jurisprudence.” (Click here to listen to "Day 2 Aryah Sommers)

At the Border Patrol station in Nogales, we met with the Patrol Agent in Charge, John Fitzpatrick. The Tucson sector, he told us, had the most migration of any border area. The station in Nogales is the largest in the nation, and accounts for 40% of all border arrests. Last year, they apprehended 400,000 migrants.

Other Patrol agents and representatives of other government agencies joined, as well. They described the “strange combination” of protecting the border, while also conducting search and rescue operations for migrants and others lost in the desert. Given the difficulty of the journey, they said that Border Patrol agents often conduct searches for those whose lives are in danger.

They took us on a tour of the facilities. One room featured dozens of monitors linked to cameras placed in the border area. Staff watched the monitors for signs of movement. We also witnessed first-hand the holding cells and processing areas where migrants are brought in, fingerprinted, and held until they are deported, depart, or make a legal claim. Several dozen minors were in their custody -- some of whom were unaccompanied.

One part of the facility was a large holding area that fills up during busy migration times:

Following the Border Patrol, we visited the San Xavier del Bac Mission in Tucson. The Bishops presided over Mass at this Franciscan mission that dates back to the 17th century.

Bishop McCormack gave an excellent homily celebrating the mission’s founder, Father Eusebio Francisco Kino, as a prime example of the imperative to welcome the stranger with open arms. Father Kino is remembered centuries later for the bridges he built. The Church must continue this legacy.

After we left Tucson for Houston, Bishop Soto reflected on one powerful memory from the trip to Altar the day before (Click here to listen to "Day 2 Bishop Soto). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

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Houston, TX

Wednesday, October 25 (Day 3)

We began the day with a visit to the United States Attorney's Office -- Southern District of Texas to look at the relationship between law enforcement and non-governmental organizations, including faith-based agencies, providing services to human trafficking victims. We received a background briefing on their protocol on identification, case assessment and victim support services.

They featured a profile of Houston's Human Trafficking Rescue Alliance (HTRA), a "collaboration of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies working together with area social service organizations to identify and assist the victims of human trafficking and to effectively identify, apprehend, and prosecute those engaged in trafficking." HTRA seems to be a model for bringing together government and community-based agencies to work on trafficking. He discussed several successful cases in which they prosecuted traffickers. (Click here to listen to: Day 3 US Attorney)

Before our next meeting with ICE, Father Juan Molina of the San Antonio office of the Catholic Relief Services Southwest Regional Office talked very briefly about how CRS studied trafficking patterns. He noted that CRS would see the same people they helped in their overseas relief work would end up as trafficking victims here.

Our next meeting was with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement an agency within the Dept. of Homeland Security. We wanted to analyze its role in prosecuting human trafficking cases. They described how they investigate cases, the obstacles they face, and how they deal with trafficked juveniles. The relationship between ICE personnel and faith-based service providers also came up for discussion.

(Click here to listen to: Day 3 ICE Meeting)

At noon, we went to St. Michael's Home for Children in order to further understand the range of housing and social services provided to unaccompanied non-citizen children. St. Michael's is run by the Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Houston-Galveston.

We shared lunch with the children, as well as staff. They talked about how children get to the home, what the home provides, and how the home relates to governmental agencies.

Among the services St. Michael's provides is therapy. Many of the residents suffered traumatic experiences in their migration. They traveled great distances, often witnessing or suffering violence themselves. A therapist with St. Michael's discussed the use of art in helping children recover from their traumas. They children used art to tell their stories and express themselves. Several of the children shared their art for us and told us their moving stories, from the moment they left home until they arrived at the home. They were all severely home sick, and several felt like they failed since they left home to find work to help their families subsist. To see such a burden on such young shoulders was an emotional experience for all of us.

After visiting St. Michael's, we went over to the Chancery of the Archdiocese where the Bishops presented a commendation from USCCB to Archbishop DiNardo for the tremendous services Catholic Charities of Galveston-Houston provides unaccompanied minors and human trafficking victims at the St. Michael's Home for Children and the St. Jerome Emiliani's Home for Children. Local media covered the award, as well as the delegation. (Click here to listen to: Day 3 commendation)

The delegation then headed over to St. Jerome Emiliani's Home for Children to further observe the range of housing and social services provided to unaccompanied non-citizen children there. While St. Michael's homes gives unaccompanied minors livelihood until they are processed through the immigration system, St. Jerome's is a foster home that houses children with legal status. Many of its residents are teenaged asylees and refugees. Staffed 24 hours a day, the home lets these trauma-ridden youth live a semblance of a normal, structured life – a naturally challenging transition. The youth we met there attend school. Several of them partake in extracurricular activities, such as soccer, and wrestling. To think that many of them fled war-torn conditions, often leaving no surviving family behind, it was uplifting to see them rebuild their lives.

During the evening, we headed over to Casa Juan Diego, a migrant center. We ate dinner with the staff and the undocumented workers the center services. We participated in a liturgy together. The migrants were from all over the world, as far away as the Philippines. They worked hard or spent the days looking for work. Few had any possessions besides will and their faith.

At the end of this grueling day, I had a chance to ask Bishop Ochoa for his reflections. (Click here to listen to: Day 3 Bishop Ochoa)

For more information on the day's events, see the Delegation Itinerary.

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Houston, TX

Thursday, October 26 (Day 4)

Today we rounded out our trip to Houston with a series of meetings with local

service providers and advocates. Yesterday, we met with governmental

enforcement agencies. Later in the day, we met migrants, trafficking victims, and

minors themselves. Today, we talked extensively with the service providers

about their challenge of building working relations with the government while

attending to the needs of newcomers.

After morning mass at the Catholic Charities of Galveston-Houston, we began a

morning full of continuous meetings. We discussed issues relating to

unaccompanied minors and human trafficking victims with Catholic and faith-

based service providers, the Houston Area Trafficking Coalition, and private

practitioners who provide pro bono legal representation.

The meetings were intense, with representatives of numerous organizations painting a picture of the Houston-area services and the long evolution of the area's anti-trafficking coalitions. Detailed conversations delved into the nitty gritty of programmatic operations. Some of the many groups represented included the Dominican sisters, the YMCA, Catholic Relief Services, Catholic Charities, CLINIC, and a private law firm.

Bishops Ochoa, Soto, & Barnes

Bonna Kol, the head of the Catholic Charities of Galveston-Houston, talked to me generally about the work they do with unaccompanied minors and the victims of human trafficking – from the shelters and foster homes to the legal programs. She also talked about the greater immigration debate and how it relates to the agency's work. (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Bonna Kol)

We also heard from Gracie Romero and Michelle Fuentes of the International Catholic Migration Commission. Gracie talked about ICE apprehensions of minors. On occasion, ICE abruptly separated them from their families, and sent them to distant detention centers. Michelle filled us in about the health and mental health care needs of victims and minors. Natalie Lummert of the USCCB introduced them briefly and their work.

The supervising attorney of the Catholic Charities' legal program, Wafa Abdin, led a presentation on the Houston Area Trafficking Coalition. Along with John Sullivan of Fulbright & Jaworski, L.L.P., she went over the legal services provided to unaccompanied minors, the vast majority of whom still go to court without legal representation. Sullivan's firm partners with the coalition on a pro bono basis. They discussed recent trafficking cases in Houston, and reviewed the challenges they come against in their work. (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Wafa Abdin).

Wafa Abdin, CC Houston

After we left, I caught up with one of the meeting's attendees, Mary DeLorey, a policy advisor with Catholic Relief Services. She laid out some of the root causes of human trafficking, from the economics of the home countries of the victims, to education access, and several other determinant factors. (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Mary DeLorey) She told me CRS will be publishing a study on unaccompanied minors. The study, she says, explores the links between minors migrating by themselves and the dangers of human trafficking.

In the afternoon, we left to the airport for the final phase of the delegation. At the airport, Bishop Soto reflected on the art created by the youth at St. Michael's the day before. He found the pictures they painted, and the stories they told, deeply moving. (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Bishop Soto) He also analyzed what the issues of unaccompanied minors and human trafficking say about the state of the immigration system (Click here to listen to: Bishop Soto).

I also had the opportunity to interview Bishop Barnes. He reviewed broadly what we have done during the trip so far, and what he considers to be the essential issues underlying the fact-finding purpose of the delegation (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Bishop Barnes). He also spoke, in Spanish, about how the delegation has related so far to the original mission for the delegation (Click here to listen to: Day 4 Bishop Barnes - Spanish)

As we headed for El Paso, we carried with us a list of areas of inquiry. We'll be meeting with Border Patrol during the day, and touring the border with them. We will carry in our hearts the stories of the migrants, minors and trafficking victims, as well as the ideals of the driven service providers we met in Houston, Tucson and Altar.

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El Paso, TX

Friday, October 27 (Day 5)

We arrived in El Paso late last night and had an evening meeting with a legal service provider for unaccompanied children and two entities assisting victims of trafficking. Sr. Lilliana of Las Americas described how her organization is the only legal service provider for all the unaccompanied children in federal custody in El Paso. She described some the challenges Las Americas faces in their work with these children, including the time the children must wait before returning to their home countries and the obstacles to obtaining immigration relief for children who need protection within the United States. We watched a new video released by the Women’s Commission for Refugee Women and Children which assists children in understanding what is happening in immigration court.

We recognized how immigration court and proceedings can be very confusing and sometimes frightening to unaccompanied children and the importance of having an attorney for them.

We also listened to a presentation by Leticia Lopez Manzano of Casa YMCA and Sr. Yolanda Martinez of the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity. They told us about how they worked as a team to be first responders when a young boy was rescued by law enforcement from a trafficking situation in El Paso. Their story was a reminder of the victimization of children through the crime of trafficking still occurring in our country. The young Central American boy had been kept in slavery-like conditions until a neighbor notified the Catholic community about his situation and law enforcement became involved. Together, the YMCA and the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity provided a safe haven for the young boy until he could be placed in a longer-term licensed program. The boy is now safe and recovering from the trauma he faced.

Early today we began the day with a tour of the South West Key program in El Paso which can house up to nearly 100 children. Through discussions with the staff and International Catholic Migration Commission Field Coordinators, one issue which was striking to us was the situation of Guatemalan children seeking to reunite with family in the United States. We realized that these children are particularly disadvantaged since many of them, and their families, speak Spanish as a second language. As a result, it can be difficult for these children and their families to navigate a system mainly designed to serve the Spanish-speaking population. We were particularly concerned to hear that children were reporting that their families in Guatemala were losing their lands when they were unable to pay back debts owed to smugglers. This concern had been pointed out to us in a previous city as well. We also heard about the mental health concerns of the population in general, including the extreme stress the children face in family reunification decisions and pressures.

Next we took part in a U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (El Paso Sector) presentation and tour in El Paso. We learned that the El Paso sector includes 180 miles of land border and 86 miles of river border, and that in FY06, 122,245 total apprehensions took place in the sector. (They did not have child apprehension numbers readily available). We were told that 34 people died attempting to cross the border in the El Paso Sector in Fiscal Year 2006. We were interested in the fact that only 9% of the total apprehensions were female, while we have been hearing of approximately 20% of the female unaccompanied child population in custody from the various programs serving the population.

Border Patrol agents receive 19 weeks of formal training at their designated academy. When asked about training in the identification of victims of trafficking and child interviewing skills, Border Patrol spokespersons told us that such topics may be included through on the job training. As we discussed the experiences of children in the apprehension and custody process, Border Patrol spokespersons told us that it is traumatic for children to be detained.

We proceeded with a tour of the border on a Homeland Security bus typically used to remove undocumented migrants. The bus had tinted windows with bars, and a gated fence between us and the driver who was wearing a bullet-proof vest. Sitting on the bus, we imagined the experience of the people who are returned to Mexico on such busses. We reflected on the stories of migrants we have met on the trip and some of their despairing circumstances as they sought to make a new life in our country. On one stop to view a fence between El Paso and Juarez, young children ran up to the fence on the Mexican side to shake our hands through the small holes. On the tour, we also visited the Border Patrol holding cells, Inspections facilities, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement detention. We heard about the recent Border Patrol apprehension of a 12 year old girl who was attempting to run away from her abusive family in Mexico. We hoped she was now safe in her country after Border Patrol implemented its policy of returning Mexican children to the custody of Mexican Consulate officials.

Border Crossing Monument

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El Paso, TX

Saturday, October 28 (Day 6)

This morning we learned more from Julianne Duncan, Associate Director of Children’s Services at USCCB/MRS about the foster care options available for unaccompanied children in federal custody. These programs provide small home-like environments in contrast to the large shelter facilities.

We visited one of these programs this morning in El Paso, administered by the Lutheran Social Services of the South (LSSS)During this visit with staff, foster families and children in care, we observed that the children felt relaxed and happy despite the difficult situation of being in immigration proceedings. Foster parents spoke about how children arrived feeling very anxious and even fearful sometimes but that their anxieties and fears subsided as they were welcomed and cared for in their homes. We learned about the increased number of small children seeking to reunite with parents in the United States. Children of diverse ages were in the program, including an adolescent girl with a new baby. This young woman asked Bishop Barnes and Bishop Ochoa to bless her new baby boy.

Next was a press event in downtown El Paso where Bishop Barnes and Bishop Ochoa spoke with the press about the delegation and some of their finding thus far. The Bishops spoke about how the immigration system is broken and President Bush’s unfortunate endorsement of the construction of a 700-mile fence at the border. They told the press that there is a serious need to understand the issue of trafficking and provide services for these victims. They mentioned that not all law enforcement agencies we spoke with understood the law on human trafficking and how to identify these situations.

They told everyone that because of many unaccompanied children’s undocumented status and the limited resources available to them, they become highly vulnerable to mistreatment, abuse, and violation of legal rights. The Bishops told everyone that “Americans should question any system, particularly one that deals with children and crime victims, that offends the human dignity of such people solely by reason of their immigration status.”

In the afternoon we traveled across the border to Juarez to see first hand where the unaccompanied Mexican children are returned after they are caught by immigration officials in the United States. The first shelter was the non-government shelter, Casa YMCA Del Menor Migrante, which cares for a number of Mexican and sometimes children from other countries who have no other place to go. The director discussed with the Bishops her concerns about the population of children she sees. She mentioned that her program was “like an aspirin” helping children, but there were larger social and political situations affecting them that needed to be addressed. Again, we heard from her about the problem of building a wall along the border and how this would not solve the problems affecting so many children and others.

We also visited the Mexican government run shelter, administered by Desarollo Integral Familiar (DIF). We learned about the processes of returning Mexican children from the United States and how this program seeks to reunite them with family in Mexico.

Unfortunately, they find that many of the children who are returned to Mexico have more family, including parents, in the U.S. rather than in Mexico. We met one such child who had been in the shelter for two days. He had been living in New Mexico with his parents for four years until immigration enforcement apprehended him without his parents and returned him to Mexico. He told us he would try again to return to the U.S. on his own. Another group of children at the shelter just arriving as we visited were local Mexican children who had been on a school field trip collecting insects. They had not realized that they were on U.S. land until U.S. Border Patrol officials arrested them, took their fingerprints and turned them over to the Mexican officials. They looked very disoriented as they entered the shelter.

Our last visit of the day was to the Casa del Migrante in Juarez, run by the Scalabrinian Order. The shelter houses migrants who are removed from the U.S. as well as those who are making their way north from other parts of Mexico as well as Central American countries. We were very surprised to learn that of the over 1400 people housed by the shelter this year, approximately 500 were under the age of 18, emphasizing for us again the number of children among the population of migrants. Fr. Carlos Amado, one of the administrators of Casa del Migrantes, in fact told us about how the average age of the migrants is decreasing dramatically.

Bishop Renato Ascensio Leon, Bishop of Juarez, met us at the shelter. He stressed for all of us his concerns about the situation of migrants in his diocese as well as all of Mexico. A particular need in the city of Juarez is shelter for women, both a safe place for migrants, as well as the general population. While Casa del Migrante serves women and their families, the Priests spoke of their concern for their safety in particular.

Bishop Renato Ascensio Leon, Bishop of Ciudad Juarez (Left)

Tomorrow is the last day of the delegation’s tour. We will celebrate Mass at the Cathedral in El Paso and begin our de-briefing and formulate next steps for how the Catholic Bishops can assist the situation of unaccompanied children and victims of trafficking.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; Mexico; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Arizona; US: Texas; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aclu; aliens; alqaeda; anchorbabies; borderpatrol; borders; catholicbishops; catholicism; catholics; coyotes; criminalaliens; dirtybombs; hondurans; illegalaliens; illegalimmigrants; illegalimmigration; illegals; immigrantlist; immigration; islam; jihad; jihadists; lamigra; laraza; lawyers; leftists; mexicangovernment; mexicans; migrants; mikehuckabee; ngo; nuclearweapons; proamnesty; reconquista; rudygiuliani; sanctuary; sanctuarycities; scofflaws; smugglers; suitcasenukes; terrorism; terrorists; undocumented; wheresthefence
Not illegals, but "migrants" which tells me just about all I need to know.
1 posted on 11/07/2007 9:15:02 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

ping


2 posted on 11/07/2007 9:16:57 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
My letter to the USCCB on Immigration...
3 posted on 11/07/2007 9:18:49 AM PST by pgyanke (Duncan Hunter 08--You want to elect a conservative? Then support a conservative!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Catholic bishops have a vested interest in importing millions of (uneducated and easily-led) Catholics into this country. American Catholics are a little too hard to control anymore, have too much of a tendency to not bother with the hierarchy’s views on birth control and voting and so forth.


4 posted on 11/07/2007 9:19:23 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why don’t these bishops set up missionary centers in Mexico instead of expecting the United States to do their charitable work for them?

Seems mighty hypocritical.

Empire building.


5 posted on 11/07/2007 9:19:48 AM PST by tennteacher (Duncan Hunter '08)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Typical so-called “spirit of Vatican II” sixties leftovers who still think the year is 1968. This bunch of BINOs do not speak for this Virginia Catholic on this issue. Not one bit.


6 posted on 11/07/2007 9:24:23 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (Giving amnesty to illegal aliens is like giving land and aid to "Palestinians")
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To: Convert from ECUSA

They speak for no one. They need to fill the seats and try to recoup the billions they paid in the wake of the lawsuits.


7 posted on 11/07/2007 9:29:50 AM PST by fantom
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Maybe the Catholic Bishops have a genuine interest in the betterment of all peoples including Mexicans. After all, even anti-Catholic bigots would agree that life in the US is better than life in Mexico, wouldn’t you?
8 posted on 11/07/2007 9:35:10 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

The Catholic Bishops are out of touch.They still cannot figure out after years of study that the scandalous behavior of Kennedy and his buddies in the Senate should not be rewarded by reception of the Eucharist.And even though 77% of the population opposes Spitzer’s licenses for illegals,the Bishops of NY support Spitzer’s hair-brained scheme.


9 posted on 11/07/2007 9:36:55 AM PST by ardara
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To: Natural Law
Maybe the Catholic Bishops have a genuine interest in the betterment of all peoples including Mexicans. After all, even anti-Catholic bigots would agree that life in the US is better than life in Mexico, wouldn’t you?

I'm sure even pro-Catholic bigots can see that it would be better for ALL Mexicans to help them clean up their corruption-infested country, instead of prolonging the misery by encouraging the Mexican government to export its social problems, instead of reforming itself for the good of its people, don't you think?

10 posted on 11/07/2007 9:44:04 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

You give the hopeless Bishops too much credit.


11 posted on 11/07/2007 9:50:40 AM PST by caisson71
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
One has to wonder what the MCCB, the Mexican Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee on Migration, thinks about all of this...
12 posted on 11/07/2007 9:57:12 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
I'm glad to see that you have thoroughly researched the issue before putting you foot in your mouth....not!

The 1st Amendment of our constitution assures "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Are you so anti-Catholic that you would deny the Bishops the status of "people" and the rights that go along with it? Whether you and I like what they are saying and advocating, they are acting within the law.

The Catholic Church does have a presence in Mexico, but the Church is severely hampered in working and advocating on behalf of the people. There are five elements in the Mexican Constitution that are aimed at reducing the Catholic Church’s influence in Mexican domestic affairs.

- Article 3 enforces secular education in Mexican schools.

- Article 5 outlaws Monastic vows and orders

- Article 24 prevents public worship outside the confines of the Church buildings.

- Article 27 denies religious institutions the right to acquire, hold, or administer real property. Furthermore, all real estate held by religious institutions through third parties like hospitals, schools, was declared national property.

- Finally, Article 130 declares all basic civil responsibilities like voting or commenting on public affairs be taken away from Church officials.

In the US where the Bishops play a role life is good, in Mexico where they can't life is bad. I don't think that is purely coincidental.

13 posted on 11/07/2007 10:05:33 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law
The 1st Amendment of our constitution assures "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Are you so anti-Catholic that you would deny the Bishops the status of "people" and the rights that go along with it? Whether you and I like what they are saying and advocating, they are acting within the law.

No, I'm just smart enough to know that exercise of my own 1st amendment right to criticise the actions of thes bishops does not constitute a "violation" of their 1st amendment rights. Something you apparently don't understand.

The Catholic Church does have a presence in Mexico, but the Church is severely hampered in working and advocating on behalf of the people. There are five elements in the Mexican Constitution that are aimed at reducing the Catholic Church’s influence in Mexican domestic affairs.

None of which matters, because none of those articles say anything about what bishops in Mexico teach their own people inside the church doors, which is where the bulk of religious socialisation (obviously) occurs.

In the US where the Bishops play a role life is good, in Mexico where they can't life is bad. I don't think that is purely coincidental.

Highly doubtful that that has even the slightest bit to do with it. Besides, if life in America is good because Catholic bishops play a role in public life, then life in America is even BETTER because Protestant and Baptist pastors (groups which make up the majority in the USA) also play said role.

14 posted on 11/07/2007 10:12:19 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
While I disagree with the bishops pandering to illegal aliens ...

Your opinion is that of an uninformed idiot.

15 posted on 11/07/2007 10:15:57 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy
the Mexican Conference of Catholic Bishops, having only recently been freed from anti-clerical laws imposed by the marxist revolutionaries that ran Mexico for the better part of a century, thinks that the Mexican government needs to clean up its act.

But the MSM will never tell you that.

The MSM wants to hide the truth from you.

16 posted on 11/07/2007 10:18:44 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Convert from ECUSA; All

**Typical so-called “spirit of Vatican II” sixties leftovers who still think the year is 1968. This bunch of BINOs do not speak for this Virginia Catholic on this issue. Not one bit.**

In fact, we need to pray for these Bishops in name only.

They are being replaced before retirement age by Pope Benedict XVI. Keep praying!


17 posted on 11/07/2007 10:19:30 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Natural Law

“anti-Catholic bigots”

You must be a Democrat, Natural Law.

Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, introduced the Social Security (FICA) Program. He promised:
1.) That participation in the Program would be completely voluntary,
2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual incomes into the Program,
3.) That the money the participants elected to put into the Program would be deductible from their income for tax purposes each year,
4.) That the money the participants put into the independent “Trust Fund” rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and,
5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.
Since many of us have paid in to FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month — and then finding that we are getting taxe d on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to “put away,” you may be interested in the following:
Q: Which Political Party took Social Security from the independent “Trust” fund and put it into the General fund so that Congress could spend it?
A: It was Lyndon Johnson and the democratically controlled House and Senate.
Q: Which Political Party eliminated the income tax deduction for Social Security (FICA) withholding?
A: The Democratic Party.
Q: Which Political Party started taxing Social Security annuities?
A: The Democratic Party, with Al Gore casting the “tie-breaking” deciding vote as President of the Senate, while he was Vice President of the U.S.
Q: Which Political Party decided to start giving annuity payments to immigrants?
A: That’s right! Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Party.
Immigrants moved into this country, and at age 65, began to receive Social Security payments! The Democratic Party gave these payments to them, even though they never paid a dime into it!
Then, after doing all this lying and thieving and violation of the original contract (FICA), the Democrats turn around and tell you that the Republicans want to take your Social Security away!
And the worst part about it is, uninformed citizens* believe it!


18 posted on 11/07/2007 10:25:03 AM PST by tumblindice (*See: "anti-Catholic bigots")
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To: ArrogantBustard
Your opinion is that of an uninformed idiot.

As was your criticism.

19 posted on 11/07/2007 10:33:14 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

If you think illegal aliens are Church attending Catholics your head is farther up your dirt chute than the USCCBs are.


20 posted on 11/07/2007 11:07:41 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
If you think illegal aliens are Church attending Catholics your head is farther up your dirt chute than the USCCBs are.

Well, they are in my area (Chapel Hill, NC).

21 posted on 11/07/2007 11:11:17 AM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Your inconsistencies abound. Your initial complaint was that the Bishops actually dared to participate in the political dialog. You further framed the argument such that their interests were more for selfengrandizment than for humanitarian or a “do unto others” motivation. Lastly, if you are so blinded by your biases that you cannot see or appreciate the good that the Church has done and will continue to do then I pity you and will pray for you.
22 posted on 11/07/2007 11:12:52 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

They will learn that the good ole USA is just one big pinata’.....


23 posted on 11/07/2007 11:18:14 AM PST by tracer
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; All

And would these so-called religious people acknowledge that if their compassion was not exceeded by their inability to reason, a total-border fence would vastly reduce the problems that concern them to a trickle? No.

The “Catholic Bishops Conference” is a political organization , not a religious organization.


24 posted on 11/07/2007 11:18:15 AM PST by Wuli
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I didn’t read most of it, but the easiest way to deal with this issue is to discredit those leaders by pointing out that they encourage illegal immigration and thereby play a role in those border deaths and other consequences. Tell them that if they really cared they’d push for strict enforcement of our laws in order to prevent people from trying to cross the desert.

If you’re in Houston, try this guy:

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/007094.html


25 posted on 11/07/2007 11:22:29 AM PST by lonewacko_dot_com (http://lonewacko.com/blog)
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To: tumblindice
Do you deny that anti-Catholic bigots and bigotry exists today in the government, the MSM and in many of the upstanding "Christian" churches across this country? If you believe that I am a Democrat then you need to research the concept of Natural Law and the positions I have taken. Let me give you a brief tutorial.

Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) is an ethical theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature (God) and that therefore has validity everywhere. The phrase natural law is sometimes opposed to the positive law of a given political community, society, or nation-state, and can thus function as a standard by which to criticize that law.

Natural law theories have exercised a profound influence on the development of English common law, and have featured greatly in the philosophies of Thomas Aquinas, Francisco Suárez, Richard Hooker, Thomas Hobbes, Hugo Grotius, Samuel von Pufendorf, and John Locke. Because of the intersection between natural law and natural rights, it has been cited as a component in United States Declaration of Independence. Hardly Democrat operatives and positions.

The Roman Catholic Church continues to hold the view of natural law set forth by St. Thomas Aquinas, particularly in his Summa Theologica, which is also shared by many Protestant churches.

It holds human beings to consist of body and mind, the physical and the non-physical (or soul perhaps), and that the two are inextricably linked. Humans are capable of discerning the difference between good and evil because they have a conscience. There are many manifestations of the good that we can pursue. Some, like procreation, are common to other animals, while others, like the pursuit of truth, are inclinations peculiar to the capacities of human beings.

To know what is right, one must use one's reason and apply it to Aquinas' precepts. The most important is the primary precept, self preservation. There are also four subsidiary precepts: procreation, education of children, living in society, and worshipping God (veneration). In addition to these, there are secondary precepts, which Aquinas did not specify like the other five. Therefore, for a deontological ethical theory they are open to a surprisingly large amount of interpretation and flexibility. Any rule that helps man to live up to the primary or subsidiary precepts can be a secondary precept, for example:

Drunkenness is wrong because it injures one's health, and worse, destroys one's ability to reason, which is fundamental to man as a rational animal (i.e. does not support self preservation).

Theft, even under cover of law, is wrong because it destroys social relations, and man is by nature a social animal (i.e. does not support the subsidiary precept of living in society).

Natural moral law is concerned with both exterior and interior acts, also know as action and motive. Simply doing the right thing is not enough; to be truly moral one's motive must be right as well. For example, helping an old lady across the road (good exterior act) to impress someone (bad interior act) is wrong. Pointing the finger and damning another human being to assure one's place in Heaven is wrong. However, good intentions don’t always lead to good actions. The motive must coincide with Aquinas's cardinal or theological virtues. Cardinal virtues are acquired through reason applied to nature; they are:

- Prudence

- Justice

- Temperance

- Fortitude

His theological virtues are:

- Faith

- Hope

- Charity

According to Aquinas, to lack any of these virtues is to lack the ability to make a moral choice. For example, consider a man who possesses the virtues of justice, prudence, and fortitude, yet lacks temperance. Due to his lack of self control and desire for pleasure, despite his good intentions, he will find himself swaying from the moral path.

26 posted on 11/07/2007 11:38:29 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: fantom; All

“They speak for no one. They need to fill the seats and try to recoup the billions they paid in the wake of the lawsuits”

We have a WINNER!!!!


27 posted on 11/07/2007 11:43:23 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Pray for, and support our troops(heroes) !! And vote out the RINO's!!)
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To: lonewacko_dot_com

“the easiest way to deal with this issue is to discredit those leaders by pointing out that they encourage illegal immigration and thereby play a role in those border deaths and other consequences. Tell them that if they really cared they’d push for strict enforcement of our laws in order to prevent people from trying to cross the desert.”

You got it.


28 posted on 11/07/2007 11:46:51 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Pray for, and support our troops(heroes) !! And vote out the RINO's!!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why are the American Bishops sticking their noses in here?

This should be the business of the Latin American Bishops.


29 posted on 11/07/2007 11:46:57 AM PST by Palladin (Waterboard Patrick Leahy!)
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To: Wuli
The “Catholic Bishops Conference” is a political organization , not a religious organization. It's a good ole boys club, founded and fostered to protect and promote the personal interests of the American Catholic Bishops. Period. End of story.
30 posted on 11/07/2007 11:50:04 AM PST by Palladin (Waterboard Patrick Leahy!)
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To: Natural Law
Your inconsistencies abound. Your initial complaint was that the Bishops actually dared to participate in the political dialog. You further framed the argument such that their interests were more for selfengrandizment than for humanitarian or a “do unto others” motivation.

Well, no, since my initial complain was specifically articulating the aggrandisement argument (i.e. it wasn't just that "the Bishops actually dared to participate in the political dialog"), my position is completely consistent. You have committed two fallacies: 1) you made a straw man argument and 2) you committed a category error. I think you seriously need to take a class in formal logic.

Lastly, if you are so blinded by your biases that you cannot see or appreciate the good that the Church has done and will continue to do then I pity you and will pray for you.

Which has zilch to do with what I actually said. Please confine your martyr complex to dealing with what's actually said, not what you wish had been said so that you could complain about it.

31 posted on 11/07/2007 12:12:32 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Matthew 12:2-7

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

32 posted on 11/07/2007 12:17:54 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; Salvation

Pro-Catholic and anti-Catholic do not apply to this discussion as it is one of political not of spiritual matters.

Justice is served by obedience to law, not by aiding and abetting international socialism. Man’s law, including the statutes that protect our border and procedures for lawful immigration, applies equally to all: that is justice. As for spiritual justice, that is clearly God’s province.

The law of hubris, perhaps, is served by the bishops’ defiance of U.S. law, and falsely so in the name of religion. In my view, they are abusing the faith this way to prop up a sense of personal virtue.

So, the bishops are exercising a “bad interior act” via a “good exterior act” to impress their liberal anti-U.S. followers. Additionally, they are taking advantage of a de facto religious immunity afforded by our great nation.

In addition to praying for Benedict to name bishops (and cardinals) who honor the separation of church and state, and who humbly recognize their non-exalted place in the church, I would not hesitate to express myself in writing to this Bishops Council to the effect they DO NOT represent me.

If they choose to act quietly as individuals, as private citizens, that is another matter.

What we do not hear about are life-saving actions, as performed by BP agents and Minutemen. As well, many may not know that as a lawyer, Duncan Hunter has helped sincere non-citizens to immigrate legally.

The cardinal virtues would be best served by educating and aiding those who are sincere immigrants in following U.S. laws and procedures.


33 posted on 11/07/2007 12:37:32 PM PST by La Enchiladita
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To: Natural Law

Unfortunately for your argument, Matthew 12:2-7 is dealing with salvation, and the associated demands for ritualism and sacramentalism which false religion (such as Phariseeism) demands but which Jesus rejected, not social issues.

“Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work”. (Titus 3:1)

“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” (I Peter 2:13-14)

The Bible enjoins that we are to obey the laws of the land. One of the laws (ostensibly) of the United States is that you have to be a citizen, or have to have the permission of our government, to be here. If you don’t (i.e. are illegal), then you are breaking the law, and sinning against God.

Further, if we wish to talk about “love” in the illegal immigration issue, we need to understand that the restrictionist viewpoint is the loving viewpoint, for four reasons:

1) Allowing illegal immigration actually harms the illegals themselves. If a person is illegal, then they have basically no realistic protections before the law - they can be underpaid, denied even basic benefits, and regulations concerning safety and health basically don’t apply to them. I’ve heard too many horror stories about illegals being killed or maimed on the job, and nothing can or will be done about it (even by themselves) because they are here illegally. This situation would not happen if the people who are currently illegal would instead follow the law, apply for the various types of visas, and come here legally the same way everyone else has to.

2) This leads into the second point - illegal immigration is unfair to those law-abiding souls who DO or DID follow the law and do everything legally. Illegal immigration makes things harder for those who are trying to do the right thing and follow the law, and is basically the geopolitical equivalent of being the jerk who cuts in front of everyone else in line because he can’t be troubled to wait his turn like everyone else.

3) Illegal immigration also hurts blacks and Hispanics who are legal immigrants or who were born here. Both of these groups disproportionately compete for jobs with illegal immigrants, and suffer disproportionately from unfair competition and wage depression. This doesn’t affect YOU (assuming you are like most FReepers and are white and middle-to-upper-middle class), but it DOES affect THEM tremendously. So, what for YOU is just an abstract exercise in misplaced ideals of “social justice” is literally a matter of life and livelihood for blacks and legal Hispanics.

4) Illegal immigration, ultimately, makes conditions for NEARLY EVERYONE ELSE in Mexico worse than they are now. While Mexico is rolling in dough because of the money illegals wire back from working in the USA, this is only a Band-Aid on the gunshot wound of the social pressures and social dysfunctions that are endemic in Mexican society. Mexico is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Mexico is one of the most RACIST countries in the world. If you are not part of the rich, whitish upper crust (think Carlos Slim or any upper-level operative in the PRI), then you are considered as nothing. Illegal immigration provides the oppressors with a “safety valve”. Many of the most troublesome members of the underclass - specifically the vigourous young male members - go to the USA to work instead of staying home, stewing in unemployment, corruption, and racism and possibly fomenting revolution (as happened anywise in Chiapas and Oaxaca, two regions with relatively less access to the USA than more northerly states). The Mexican elite encourages illegal immigration because it gets potential revolutionaries and disgruntled soreheads off their backs and out of their countries. It also allows these elites to maintain a tighter grip on the rest of the Mexicans who stay behind - and who suffer from the lack of pressure for meaningful reforms in the Mexican government and society.

Hence, to SUPPORT illegal immigration is actually an unloving position which in the long run HURTS both illegals and their families and friends back in Mexico, as well as hurting vulnerable segments of American society.


34 posted on 11/07/2007 12:44:39 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Interesting how the blog does not readily identify who “the bishops” in this delegation are. After searching, as far as I could tell, there were only three. Of those three, two have Spanish surnames and one English. There is no reference as to what dioceses these “bishops” are responsible for. I am beginning to wonder...

Nevertheless, there is much of this same sentiment in parts of the archdiocese of Los Angeles, as personified in Cardinal Mahony and as can be seen in the weekly rag, THE TIDINGS.


35 posted on 11/07/2007 12:54:17 PM PST by La Enchiladita
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To: Natural Law

As a faithful and orthodox Catholic, I understand that we are called upon to obey the just laws of our country. Immigration laws are just.

Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers, and while they shouldn’t be mistreated, they should be sent home.


36 posted on 11/07/2007 1:00:10 PM PST by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: La Enchiladita
Pro-Catholic and anti-Catholic do not apply to this discussion as it is one of political not of spiritual matters.

Exactly. When I mentioned that the bishops' motives might not be wholly pure as the driven snow, I am not speaking from a pro- or anti-position on anything (other than, of course, illegal immigration). I am merely pointing out that, as leaders in the Catholic hierarchy, these bishops certainly ought to benefit from having millions of born Catholics filling up dioceses all over the country. If anything, these bishops would seem to have a conflict of interest in this matter.

37 posted on 11/07/2007 1:22:40 PM PST by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (Conservatives - Freedom WITH responsibility; Libertarians - Freedom FROM responsibility)
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To: tennteacher
Why don’t these bishops set up missionary centers in Mexico instead of expecting the United States to do their charitable work for them? Seems mighty hypocritical. Empire building.

Bingo! So much easier to protest in the United States, where they'll not be kicked out of than to really display some courage by going to Mexico and protesting a cruel, despotic and selfish government.

And as a Catholic, I really have a genuine right to criticize the cowardice and lack of integrity of our clergy.

38 posted on 11/07/2007 1:23:41 PM PST by E. Cartman (Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.)
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To: Natural Law
Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

There's no mercy in a bunch of silk-clad old men protesting against the legitimate concerns of the citizens of a free and just society and nation. If they had any real courage or faith in Christ, they'd take off their frocks, hie themselves down to "Mejico" and protest the despots who've been destroying those people for centuries.

39 posted on 11/07/2007 1:27:29 PM PST by E. Cartman (Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Yep, I understand from reading your posts where you are coming from.

There are other issues promoted by a certain element in the Church that evidence a Leftist agenda: There is a heavy amount of ethnic identification and separatism, for example, as well as gay/lesbian validation. Apostasy abounds. I try to ignore it and go ahead with my spiritual studies.


40 posted on 11/07/2007 1:31:53 PM PST by La Enchiladita
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To: E. Cartman
"If they had any real courage or faith in Christ, they'd take off their frocks, hie themselves down to "Mejico" and protest the despots who've been destroying those people for centuries."

It sure seems easy for some to condemn the entire Catholic church on the issue of illegal immigration because the Mexicans are predominantly Catholic and the Church reaches out to the "least of our brethren".

Perhaps you missed an earlier post of mine in which I pointed out that what you are advocating is illegal in Mexico. The Bishops would be detained immediately if they attempted what you say. Also, these Bishops are working within an organization that has assigned them specific duties and regions. Their mission was to study the problem from the American side with specific emphasis not on those who successfully cross, but on the victims and minors. Before you criticize the organizational structure of the Church remember it has been functioning pretty effectively for about 2,000 years.

41 posted on 11/07/2007 1:51:39 PM PST by Natural Law
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