Half of British Apache gunships are grounded

The Daily Telegraph,UK ^ | 11/11/2007 | Robert Watts

[sukhoi-30mki]

Half of Army gunships are grounded

By Robert Watts, Whitehall Correspondent Last Updated: 2:44am GMT 11/11/2007

Half of the Apache gunships supporting British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq were grounded this summer, new Government figures reveal.

A third of the Chinook transport helicopters on operations were also withdrawn from service as they were found not to be "fit for purpose". The heavy toll that the conflicts have had on Britain's air power is revealed in a survey of the state of Army helicopters, conducted by the Ministry of Defence in August.

Ministers do not make public exactly how many helicopters are deployed in war zones. However, the Government study reveals the percentage of Army helicopters at the time considered "fit for purpose" - defined as "available, reliable, airworthy and capable of carrying out their planned missions".

Armed with eight Hellfire missiles and 76 Flechette rockets, each Apache gunship provides vital support to British forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. Britain has a fleet of more than 60 of the £30 million attack helicopters.

However, the proportion of those deployed in the war zones which are available for combat fell from 60 per cent in August last year to 50 per cent this year. Only around half of the Army's Sea King helicopters, which are used to transport troops to and from operations, were operational when the survey was conducted.

In addition, only half of the newer Merlin Mk3 support helicopters were "fit for purpose".

The helicopter type found to be in the best condition was the Gazelle AH1, used for reconnaissance and to transport the military top brass, with around 80 per cent operational.

The Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, Nick Harvey, said: "These figures surely question the sustainability of our helicopter operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"It is particularly disturbing that since last year there has been a general fall in the number of helicopters fit for purpose. Pressure on helicopters in Afghanistan is particularly acute. If we are to be there for the long haul, the Government must get to grips with the overstretch of our Armed Forces."

He called on the Government to hold a strategic defence review. The figures emerged three days after three former defence chiefs launched the UK National Defence Association, a campaign calling for more spending on the armed forces.

Lord Guthrie, Lord Craig and Admiral Lord Boyce want the annual defence budget raised from £34 billion to nearly £50 billion.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Westland WAH-64D Apache

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

Hey England, Fighting a war aint cheap.Maybe you need to spend more money to get the Percentage back up to acceptable levels.You need Maggie back in there as PM.

[DrGunsforHands]

This is only slightly on topic, but how did the Comanche compare to the Apache?

[rockinqsranch]

I would believe this to be a great example of the Liberal tack of the UK with the defense of the Nation at odds with the Liberal spending commitments. Guess what wins under Leftist/Liberal leadership?

Some sense has to return and soon as the Brits are throwing in the towel, and leaving their country.

[sukhoi-30mki]

The Commanche was smaller,lighter & with lower radar cross section & noise levels.The Apache is more heavily armed,though.

[claudiustg]

I Went on a REFORGER up in northern Germany, the British sector. The British trucks were broken down from one end of the place to the other. I think their maintenance as second rate. Also, rather than setting up tents to sleep in, the Brits would sleep in, on, and under their trucks. A number of them were run over that way. They were also the most drunken lot I’ve ever seen.

[plenipotentiary]

Sadly the British young, old, male, female, in general seem to have only one main enjoyment, and that is drinking to excess. It is a great shame, a national scandal in fact.

Secondly, the British Labour Government and previous Tory one’s have drastically cut budgets for replacement and maintenance.

Recently we have had the story about the Nimrod reconaissance plane landing with it’s bomb bay coated with leaking fuel. Another Nimrod recently blew up in the air.

The Nimrod is a DeHaviland Comet from the 50’s. Commercial airlines stopped using them about 30 years ago or more, yet successive Governments have refitted them to extend their life. They now seem to be flying coffin/bombs. It is another National disgrace.

[plenipotentiary]

Perhaps it was ever thus. Following are quotes from The Duke of Wellington:

“People talk of their enlisting from their fine military feeling - all stuff - no such thing. Some of our men enlist from having got bastard children — some for minor offences — many more for drink.

Ours (our army) is composed of the scum of the earth - the mere scum of the earth.

I don’t know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me.”

[claudiustg]

“I don’t know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me.”

That’s a great quote! :^)

[WLR]

“Hey England, Fighting a war aint cheap.Maybe you need to spend more money to get the Percentage back up to acceptable levels.You need Maggie back in there as PM.”

__________________________________________________________

Helicopters are largely crap... too expensive, too slow, poor lift capabilities.

Acquire and learn to employ STOL aircraft...

Less expensive, faster, more lift, more reliable....

Perfectly suited for scouting, surveillance and attack roles.

W

[Tommyjo]

England?

[toddlintown]

“I Went on a REFORGER up in northern Germany”

Ah yes, the annual fall outing. I did 3 of them betwen way too many stints at Grafenwoehr and Wildflecken.

[Tommyjo]

And where did the P-3 Orion come from? The Nimrod was a new-build airframe and an exceptional platform for the duties that it carries out. Take a look at the U.S. fleet or the Russian fleet of aircraft. Many an old airframe has been refitted/re-engined and still serve. Take the USAF 135 fleet for example. Take a look at the B-52. Why throw a perfectly good airframe away just because the general public perceive it to be old and something from the past?

[Tommyjo]

‘Only around half of the Army’s Sea King helicopters’

More slack journalism. The Army (UK) doesn’t operate Sea Kings.

[Lucky Dog]

Why throw a perfectly good airframe away just because the general public perceive it to be old and something from the past?

While the principles of aerodynamics do not change, our understanding of them and ability to optimize the use of them, increases. Increases in our knowledge of aerodynamics decrease potential costs by increasing capabilities available for the same relative expenditure (in inflation adjusted amounts). The supercritical wing design is a good example of technology that increases aerodynamic efficiency (thus reducing operating costs). Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, this increased understanding and employment of these principles increases the military capability of the machine for the mission.

The principles that govern the phenomenon known as metal fatigue from stress and strain do not change. Unfortunately, our ability to detect and correct these types of problems due to cycles (use rate) does not keep pace with its “growth” (pardon the pun). Longerons, spars and other load bearing parts that continue to exceed their design lifetime can only be inspected and replaced so many times before the cost of doing so exceeds the cost of completely replacing the entire airframe.

If one is inclined charitably toward others’ motives, the P-3 and the B-52 that you cited are perfect examples of misguided attempts of those who do not understand economics, engineering or military requirements. If one is less charitably inclined, the fact that these airframes are still on active duty in lieu of newer, more capable designs is an indication of perfidy for purely political gain.

[plenipotentiary]

An RAF board of inquiry is still preparing its final report on the incident. But according to defence sources:

-There have been repeated further leaks since last September’s accident.

-The same ageing air-to-air refuelling systems that caused the leak will remain in the fuselages of the Nimrods after their refurbishment by BAE Systems without any tests to “qualify” them as safe.

-The fuel pipes that leaked are single skin unlike all modern versions, which are double skin.

-The same leaking single-skin pipes will remain on the revamped Nimrods to save money in a move described by one pilot as “totally reckless”.

-There are no plans to fit the Nimrod’s wing fuel tanks with foam that would have prevented the explosion, even though foam is being fitted to the RAF’s Hercules aircraft.

-The problems have led to widespread disillusionment among crews. So many ground crew have left that the Ministry of Defence is advertising on the internet for civilian technicians in five different specialities to work at Kinloss.

NetJets, a corporate aircraft company that has opened a new crew base at Aberdeen, held a recruitment roadshow at a hotel in nearby Elgin and found many Nimrod pilots were prepared to resign to join the company.

The MoD said there was a “retention issue” at Kinloss but blamed it on financial rather than safety concerns.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1687498.ece

[TalBlack]

“I don’t know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me.”

Certainly Wellington was in a position to know but lets give the limey soldier his due and say he was a HELL of a bad guy to run into on many a battlefield in history.

[WLR]

The principles that govern the phenomenon known as metal fatigue from stress and strain do not change. Unfortunately, our ability to detect and correct these types of problems due to cycles (use rate) does not keep pace with its “growth” (pardon the pun). Longerons, spars and other load bearing parts that continue to exceed their design lifetime can only be inspected and replaced so many times before the cost of doing so exceeds the cost of completely replacing the entire airframe.

---

More techno double speak.. a measure of truth mixed into a self serving false hood...

B-1 & B-2s the craft you wish to substitute for the B52 cost a fortune to purchase maintain and operate. For example: a B-1 in the late 70’s cost 100 million dollars per copy,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-1_Lancer

The B-2 is so flipping expensive that at 2.1 Billion Dollars per plane we only have some 20 Planes in the entire US Air force all stationed at the same US base

(Have any of the Well manicured and soft spoken Pretty Boy, GQ Air force Generals at the Pentagon ever heard of a place called.... “Pearl Harbor” ?) Of course not. They are idiots.
20 Planes total....total idiots is all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-2_Spirit

Their conduct is just as pathetic and unprofessional as their GQ counterparts in the US Army..

Like brats the GQ Generals deliberately break their old toys so Mommy & Daddy Warbucks (The US Congress) will buy them new ones.

The Air Force in their desperation to get new toys is still chopping up B52 AirFrames in accordance with a Treaty between the US and the now non existent Soviet Union.
(Our Army GQ Generals do the same giving aways perfectly serviceable medium tanks..Want to see some of our M113 Gavins and M60- M48 Medium tanks? US and Kurdish Forces are facing them in the hands of the Turks... GIVEN AWAY to them by the US Military.

That Mech Armor makes the Turkish Army the strongest force in Northern Iraq.. (Hint our perfumed and well primped Generals have no significant Mech Armor forces in Iraq.

Other M113 gavins are at the bottom of the ocean as places for fish to fornicate while Americans are blown up riding around in newly manufactured and far less safe wheeled CrapOmatics (Humvee, Stryker, LAV) (It;s all about that golden parachute into a nice defense contractor consulting job)

(As an aside the reality is the Turks could give a rats about the PKK they have used them as an excuse to Mass a Mech Armor force above Northern Iraq because they intend to seize the Northern Oil Fields of Iraq if the US loses control. Do our Pretty Generals comprehend that?... (seriously doubtful because they have taken no measure to prevent it. Actually they lack the means on the ground to prevent it..The Turks could occupy the oil fields in a few days and the US would have to decide on a General war with Turkey to dislodge them.

Back to the Bomber force... It does not cost Billions per plane to refurbish and rebuild aircraft wings and fuselages. A professional military led by competent Generals would not use Billion Dollar Aircraft to deliver bombs on an amateurish enemy with minimal Air Defense capabilities.

The Fighter Pilots in the US Air force are a bunch of pampered babies who want to have all the comforts of home (Big Base PX Commisary etc) and fight against any efforts to make them responsive to the Armies actual needs. Move them to small forward deployed STOL Craft where they might get dirty.

The US Army needs Prop Driven Close Air Support Planes like Sandy’s even The Warthog with it’s turbofan is also suitable but the Air force Pretty Boy fighter pilots think
flying those planes (Sandy’s they stopped building cause it carried it’s own weight in bombs) are beneath their dignity. So they are relegated to a relative few.. Any Jackass that thinks an F16 or a B1-B-2 Bomber is the best way to deliver eggs to the market every day is on KraCk...

The problem of ego driven weapons platform acquisition is not an Air force Problem alone it is US Military wide..

It is however getting GIs killed.

Keep it simple, Simple, cheap , robust...

W

[Lucky Dog]

More techno double speak.. a measure of truth mixed into a self serving false hood...

I could respond to your comment with “your ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance.” Nonetheless, however true such a response, it cures neither your ignorance nor you arrogance. Therefore, let’s take a slightly different approach.

WLR said: …the craft you wish to substitute for…

With only the benefit of arrogance instead of, say, clairvoyance or telepathy, it is hard to understand how you would know anything about exactly what I would substitute. I never said a word about specific substitutions other than “newer, more capable designs.” If you choose to make the “cognitive leap into the unknown” that only the B-1 would fill the bill, then that is your opinion, not necessarily mine.

WLR said: The Air Force in their desperation to get new toys is still chopping up B52 AirFrames in accordance with a Treaty between the US and the now non existent Soviet Union.

Perhaps you would prefer the US to abrogate the treaties it signed with the Soviet Union which Russia is currently honoring? Naturally, this course would open the door for abandonment of all such treaties on both sides. You know, neither the Empire of Japan nor Nazi Germany exist any more, either. So, I guess the treaties ending WW II are null and void as well. Come to think about it, the current government of Spain is not the one that signed the treaty ending the Spanish American War, so they still own Cuba, the Philippines and Puerto Rico, right?

Additionally, let’s consider not “chopping up” old B-52’s… a design from the late 1940’s the last example of which (the newest) rolled off the assembly line in the early 60’s. Instead of current air crews, maybe you should be crawling into these “wonderful machines” with over 40 years of corrosion on them and try flying them into the air defenses that shot down an F-117 over Bosnia or maybe a more capable one than that, even. Volunteering?

How about those “perfectly serviceable” M113’s and M-60’s? Want to go up against T-72’s in them? Everybody knows that the aluminum armor on the M-113 will stand up to an IED and/or an RPG. Why don’t you volunteer to ride those onto today’s battlefield?

WLR said: The Fighter Pilots in the US Air force are a bunch of pampered babies who want to have all the comforts of home (Big Base PX Commisary etc) and fight against any efforts to make them responsive to the Armies actual needs. Move them to small forward deployed STOL Craft where they might get dirty.

You got a lot of mouth and apparently not too much to direct it. I spent more than 20 years sitting in USAF cockpits around the world, served in two combat theaters and few years “jumping” with the 82nd as a FAC and had a few opportunities to train on the ground and in the water with both SEALS and Rangers. Consequently, I think I know a few things, personally, about being “responsive” to the Army. Therefore, when I tell you that you so full of it your eyes are brown, you can believe it.

WLR said: Any Jackass that thinks an F16 or a B1-B-2 Bomber is the best way to deliver eggs to the market every day is on KraCk...

Once again, both, your arrogance and ignorance, is showing. You have obviously never heard of JDAMs or other, newer munitions. Furthermore, your lack of knowledge about potential enemy, high threat, air defense is abysmal.

[Rikstir]

Hey America, if this is how you treat your friends, I dont want to be one. A bigger bunch of ungrateful braggards I have never had the misfortune of speaking to...

And hey America, England is one part of the greater entity of 3 ancient nations. England, Wales, Scotland and the province of Northern Ireland. Please get this simple bit of geography correct ok?

You boys trawl through these threads just looking for a little bit of Brit-bashing to engage in. Its deflection and appeals to your superiority complex.