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Evolution: hacking back the tree of life (can anyone say DEVOLUTION?)
New Scientist ^ | June 13, 2007 | Laura Spinney

Posted on 11/14/2007 4:00:52 PM PST by GodGunsGuts

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To: Diamond
First of all chemistry works the same here as it does anywhere else. The rest of it is just chemistry, albeit at higher orders of complexity ~ e.g. double-helix molecules.

Life is an inherent property of this particular universe.

Information processing is a different story. At some point you run into the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and the various gyrations electrons go through when presented with quantum mechancs.

No doubt we have access to other dimensions ~ St. Paul theorized several of them (body, mind, soul, heart, spirit). Other groups have thought up even more of them, and each may be demonstrated intuitively or objectively ~ such is the nature of thought processes at our level of development.

No doubt we can't even imagine the half of it.

181 posted on 11/15/2007 7:28:40 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Diamond
Oh, since the fundamental codes don't evolve there's no reason they need to evolve in different places in different ways.

The proof of my statement arises out a consideration of what are called "irrational numbers". In nature ALL values for "irrational numbers" are not selected. We simply never see any structure that uses some of them ~ there are holes in their sequence.

"codes" necessarily find themselves RESTRICTED to the values available for use.

Why all the values aren't available is beyond me ~

Now, concerning "code evolution" once you have one that works, it may be added to. That's like putting a fuel injector on your antique car and tossing away the curburetor. The car's still there, it's still antique, but it gets better gas mileage.

Any new additions to the code will arise out of the same chemistry that provided the initial parts. The genome may well have some say-so in what may be added. SOmeday we'll be able to "ask the genome".

182 posted on 11/15/2007 7:34:10 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: GodGunsGuts

“It has already begun. Darwin’s TOE is on the way out. It’s only a matter of time.”

They’ve been saying that since the 1860’s sunshine, so don’t hold your breath....


183 posted on 11/16/2007 6:09:33 AM PST by bodrules
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To: bodrules
The poll numbers say otherwise. Just think, 100+ years of unrelenting propaganda from grade school all the way up through the university, and the Evos can’t even crack the lowest quintile. LOL

Humans evolved, God did not guide process

All Americans — 13%

Even when you mix evolution with God and add it to the strictly materialist numbers above, all the Evos have managed to come up with is two quintiles:

Humans evolved, God guided the process

All Americans — 27%

The next series of numbers speak for themselves:

God created humans in present form

All Americans — 55%

FAVOR SCHOOLS TEACHING…

Creationism and evolution

All Americans — 65%

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

Like I said, time is on our side. Darwinism is but a blip on the vast expanse of the multi-millennia Creationist radar screen.

184 posted on 11/16/2007 9:04:18 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

There’s something screwy about that poll. They’ve got 65% wanting to teach creationism *and* evolution, and 37% wanting to teach creationism *instead of* evolution. That’s 102%, and they haven’t even counted the people who don’t want them to teach creationism at all—there must be some.


185 posted on 11/16/2007 10:50:11 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: metmom
So which is it? Does it explore the supernatural or not?

If you tell me my TV picture is generated by spirits living inside my TV, and I show you that no, there's an explanation for the picture that doesn't involve spirits, that doesn't mean I'm exploring the spirits that live in my TV.

The reason your question is called "trolling" is that you've mostly demonstrated yourself to be smarter than that. One obvious conclusion is that you just said it to be argumentative--that you must see that it's a silly thing to say but said it anyway.
186 posted on 11/16/2007 10:57:52 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: GodGunsGuts
It’s purely a conceptual chart with no actual data points whatsoever.

Darwin explains that each capital letter represents species of a widespread genus, that each horizontal line represents a thousand generations (or even better, 10,000), and that each small letter-number combination represents a new variant in the species. That's pretty detailed. Can you apply similarly detailed labels to the degeneration chart?
187 posted on 11/16/2007 11:01:30 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

==Darwin explains that each capital letter represents species of a widespread genus

Hypothetical, no data

==that each horizontal line represents a thousand generations (or even better, 10,000)

Hypothetical, no data

==and that each small letter-number combination represents a new variant in the species

Hypothetical, no data


188 posted on 11/16/2007 11:29:23 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; metmom
No, you are the troll, and you are trolling by putting the words in her mouth (creating the straw man) words that that she never said, and then attacking the straw man.

I am not saying that it is, but if that is all education can produce, what a waste of education.

189 posted on 11/16/2007 11:36:44 PM PST by valkyry1
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To: GodGunsGuts

That’s not what “hypothetical” means. Do you believe there are such things as genera, species, and generations? Then saying “let this line represent a thousand generations” is not hypothetical.

I repeat, can you do even that much with the degeneration chart?


190 posted on 11/17/2007 12:01:17 AM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

The Y axis represents the genetical richness of the original created kinds. The X axis represents the loss of genetical richness over time. Same difference.


191 posted on 11/17/2007 12:27:44 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

==That’s not what “hypothetical” means.

Darwin’s entire chart was hypthetical = conjecture. None of the species or generational time frames pertained to actual data. They all existed in his own head. He was using the chart to help the reader understand an idea. In this case, natural selection.


192 posted on 11/17/2007 12:32:21 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
Y axis was genetical richness, the X axis was time, but was not labeled with actual numbers so as not to offend YECreationists. The lines drawn in to cover nonexistent data points were what represented loss of genetical richness (still not defined) over time.

An axis doesn’t show gain or loss, it is a straight line.

193 posted on 11/17/2007 12:46:27 AM PST by allmendream
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To: allmendream

Darwin did no better. The one chart in his whole book contained NO DATA.


194 posted on 11/17/2007 1:24:11 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
But it was not an X vs Y data plot without data, with an undefined term plotted against an undefined time. Darwin's is a conceptual chart, and he says straight out that it is speculative. Moreover it looks like a good conceptual model, for it predicts the nested hierarchies of interrelatedness that is observed in Molecular Genetic data.

Your X vs Y data plot without data does not conform to any actual data, neither did the presenter of the chart point out that it was speculative, nor did they propose an experiment to fill in the data and confirm their predictions. They just threw up an X vs Y plot with drawn in data, said ‘this is how it is’, it being an undefined term “richness of the geneticals” plotted against an undefined and unmentioned span of time. A Rorschach Creationist ink blot, you see in it what you want to see, but there isn’t anything there.

That this is the creme de la creme of the evidence you present is kind of funny. You can have this if you wish. I will take multiple unrelated conforming and replicable lines of evidence that point to ancient ages of the earth long before mankind, the even older age of the universe, and the interrelatedness of life due to common descent as shown by the fossil record and Molecular Genetics data. I accept this data for much the same reason it is accepted worldwide by people of all different faiths, and for the same reason that it is accepted by most Christians; everyone working in Science worldwide no matter their faith finds the same lines of evidence conform to this model, replication of their results time and time again, worldwide, no matter the theology of the Scientist.

195 posted on 11/17/2007 8:23:39 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD (Hunter 08))
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To: allmendream
For the life of me, I don’t know why we are still arguing about this. I posted a graphic representation meant to communicate the concept of genetic degeneration. You jumped all over it saying that the data points are not connected to actual data. I responded by saying that the chart was not intended to communicate actual data, just the concept. When you continued to ridicule the chart, I posted a chart from Darwin’s “Origin of Species” that similarly did not contain any data. Then you claimed that the numbers and letters on the chart referred to actual data. So I looked it up, and lo and behold, the numbers and letters on Darwin’s chart refer to hypothetical examples, none of which was connected to nature. Darwin does cite actual examples in nature to bolster his case for common descent/natural selection, but he doesn't connect any of these examples to his chart. But the author of the chart I posted does the exact same thing. Namely, he cites actual examples from nature to bolster his case for the theory of genetic degeneration. Unless you have something new to add, I suggest we move on, as this particular debate is just going around in circles, generating ever decreasing amounts of heat, and even less light.
196 posted on 11/17/2007 9:47:24 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

It’s a reasonable question. On one hand, we’re told that science doesn’t concern itself with the supernatural, on the other, how science has revealed that a lot of what was once thought supernatural had physical explanations.

How could science do that without exploring the supernatural?

There’s still an awful lot of inexplicable things out there that occur; things that seem to violate the natural laws that have been observed. So do we ignore that or not? If we ignore that which we can’t explain simply because it’s been labeled supernatural, we lose the opportunity to learn something new.


197 posted on 11/17/2007 7:12:50 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
How could science do that without exploring the supernatural?

By finding a sufficient answer that doesn't involve the supernatural. If you study lightning and learn that it's an electrical discharge from cloud to earth, you don't need to explore Zeus too. If you study eclipses and learn that it's the shadow of the moon, that doesn't mean you explored sky dragons.

things that seem to violate the natural laws that have been observed. So do we ignore that or not?

Do you have something particular in mind?
198 posted on 11/17/2007 8:47:08 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Rudder

Living in a mileiu steeped in progressivism, even as Darwin was, everyone is bound to be influenced to think of things this way.


199 posted on 11/17/2007 9:04:00 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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