In Ron Paul Coins, Federal Agents Don't Trust (WP)

Washington Post ^ | 11/16/07 | Alec MacGillis

[rb22982]

What were they suing the fed for out of curiosity.

[George W. Bush]

Both numismatic and collectible value. And a considerable rise in the re-sale of them will end up in the campaign's pockets from the eBay auctions. I look for these to retain their value quite well. Some of them might change hands repeatedly via auction. All perfectly legal. LOL.

This crackdown will aid motivation for supporters as well.

[Travis McGee]

I hope some good comes out of the episode.

[mvpel]

All the filings are listed in the Liberty Dollar website. Basically,

---

“... The US Mint has no known statutory or other authority to declare a person in violation of a Federal criminal statute and is therefore acting ultra vires and outside its
jurisdictional limits.

... The US Mint, through its counsel, acted beyond the scope of its statutory authority in declaring that the “the use of these ‘gold and silver NORFED “Liberty Dollar” medallions as circulating money is a Federal crime’. Moreover, the agency action in question was ad hoc and, to the best of Plaintiff’s knowledge, unprecedented. Therefore no administrative review is available to the Plaintiff and the pronouncement should be treated as a final agency action
reviewable under 5 U.S.C. § 702.

The pronouncement of the US Mint constitutes an ultra vires act of the agency and as such deprives Plaintiff of due process under the Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution.

---

[mvpel]

It has everything to do with the price, because thta is THE price of silver. Now, if you want to pay double because this or that mint has smacked one or another designs on it, I’d call that foolish, unless you are collecting for numismatic value based on rarity etc. BUt to pay double for a silver round smacked out by the govt instead of a private mint, is stupid. I have bought 100s of silver rounds, and I pay a % over the spot price, no more. In the end, that’s all these coins are worth: the spot price plus commission.

No, your plain-jane rounds are worth a % over spot, no more, because that's what you and the seller agree to exchange for them.

THE price of a one-ounce Liberty Dollar round is $20, because that, or a discounted rate for bulk purchasers, is what the seller is offering to the public. THE price of a one-ounce US Mint silver dollar proof is $30, or some discounted rate for distributors, because that's what the sellers are offering to the public - if you're lucky - this guy is offering a 2006 silver eagle proof for $43.70.

Saying that the ounce price of a 500-ounce ingot in New York for immediate delivery is THE price of silver is like saying that the spot price of a bushel of wheat is THE price of whatever bread can be baked from it.

What is THE price of this ounce of silver?

People just need get a clue about the market in fungible commodities and get over their worship at the feet of the spot price.

[mvpel]

Are you "foolish" if you pay $3.899 per gallon in downtown San Francisco, or $3.399 in New York City?

[Travis McGee]

What’s your point? Do you understand the concept of fungible commodities, transportation costs etc?

You are showing an apple to make a point about an orange, but I don’t get the connection.

[incindiary]

It’s not that... I was talking about the timing. I really feel that if Hillary gets in, we’re not going to have another chance to elect an honest, decent, constitutionalist and liberty-minded leader, who isn’t sold out. She will be in for 8 years, and they will continue to pass the baton amongst themselves (their gang of globalist crooks) and at some point, we won't have a country anymore. They are one-worlders, they are not true Americans.

I'm not claiming to have the ability to tell the future, but FWIW, the day that Bill Clinton was first elected, I predicted that he would be impeached and/or finish his term dishonorably (I said it outloud, in front of my roommates at that time) That was before I even knew about most of his scandals..I only had heard about a couple things at that point. It may sound silly, but I remember when it was announced that he won the presidency, I had an overwhelming feeling of doom. I wasn't a believer at that time, but looking back, it was my God-given intuition. :-) If Hillary wins, it will be like a third term, and I don't think it will be better than the last time. They are criminals.

So, it's not so much about Ron Paul, in particular... It's the whole situation. Ron Paul is the only one who wants to make a significant change, and to restore our liberties and sovereignty and constitution. I'm not a libertarian, but we've gone so far in the opposite direction, that I think he is exactly what we need.

The sad part is, many people have been saying that even if he were to be elected, someone will probably make sure he doesn't last long...he is a threat to the establishment, and they can't have that.

[Travis McGee]

Oh brother, this is a waste of time now. You think the sound of your spinning wheels is a symphony.

[Travis McGee]

Hey, I’m with you. I expect our nation is on the cusp of very hard, bad times. It’s now time to move to safety and batten down the hatches for stormy weather. I’ve written two novels based on this premise, and I’m in the middle of writing a third.

[mvpel]

What’s your point? Do you understand the concept of fungible commodities, transportation costs etc?

What a joke. You're the one who claimed that the spot price of a 500-ounce ingot of silver in New York for immediate delivery is THE price of a one ounce silver proof round. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[DeaconBenjamin]

I’ve heard comparable complaints about pesos from local cashiers, but not about private currencies.

[Bokababe]

Don't you think that the Feds should have better things to do? Like chasing down al Qaeda?

Unless this whole thing was just to make an important political point to US citizens: "Don't try to compete with us. We are the Feds and you will lose."

By the time that the dust clears on this whole Liberty Dollar issue -- whether it was based on technicalities, fraud or revenge -- the election will be over and it won't matter.

But what the Feds did in this case just may be a double-edged sword that they didn't plan on. Yes, some people may walk away from Ron Paul because this makes some of his followers look like "nuts" even though Ron Paul, himself, had nothing to do with it. (Always makes me laugh when people treat a candidate's following as though it is just "a club" in which they were considering membership.) But there may also be some (or many) who didn't necessarily support Ron Paul before, but for whom this action by the Feds proved the point that government has really gotten out of hand in going after citizens who are no real threat to us just to make a political point.

[jrsmc]

A sign of the times gold and silver hoarding, Fed seizures.

Happened in late 70s early 80s but there was no internet to spread it like wildfire.

[traviskicks]

Sounds downright American, to me.

Aye, they are true patriots!

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

What a refreshing thread. Devoid of all the usual photo-shopped Paul pics and “he’s a Nazi” spam.

[JJTHEBULL]

http://www.liberty-watch.com/volume03/issue08/coverstory.php

In the mid-’90s, Kahre began exercising this alternate system. He compensated workers for their labor in the form of these gold and silver coins versus FRNs. The workers calculated their income and tax liability based on the face value of the coins.

One gold coin with a face value of $50 currently equals $806 in FRNs. If a worker earns a $50 gold coin each week, that person takes home an annual income of $2,600 based on the precious metal system, which is below the income-tax reporting threshold for an employee. However, the value of the coins in FRNs — $41,912 — is not. That’s the basic idea.

This story is awesome.

[Strong_Defense]

In the mid-’90s, Kahre began exercising this alternate system. He compensated workers for their labor in the form of these gold and silver coins versus FRNs. The workers calculated their income and tax liability based on the face value of the coins.

One gold coin with a face value of $50 currently equals $806 in FRNs. If a worker earns a $50 gold coin each week, that person takes home an annual income of $2,600 based on the precious metal system, which is below the income-tax reporting threshold for an employee. However, the value of the coins in FRNs — $41,912 — is not. That’s the basic idea.



Here's a question. Let's say your business has revenues of $1 million in FRNs. You pay 10 employees $2,600 in gold coins each.

Your payroll expenses are $26K in gold coins, or about $400K in FRNs.

So, do you deduct $26K, or do you deduct $400K? It seems to me that consistency demands that you only deduct $26K.

Thus, it seems to me that the business owner ends up paying far more taxes when he pays his employees in gold.

[traviskicks]

wow, that is a great story!

[AdamSelene235]

They drew fire for the simple reason of putting USA, $20, and TWENTY DOLLARS on their coins. This was a stupid and pointless thing to do.

I suspect this is the source of the problem as well. But that´s just beans compared to the ¨$50¨ 1 oz. Gold Eagle.