Posted on 11/17/2007 11:07:57 AM PST by mvpel
This thread is linked to a PDF document containing the seizure warrant executed against the property of the Liberty Dollar corporation and the bearers of its negotiable warehouse receipts.
The justification lists charges of money laundering, mail fraud, and wire fraud.
Guilty until proven innocent, apparently.
Apparently when you “challenge” the system that be..
Yeah, why bother fighting a lawsuit in court when you can destroy your opponent by a stroke of a pen?
Freedom is such a 19th and 20th century concept. Old news. you and your children will not have it since you and your grandparents have not fought for it.
The greatest generation that went to war for freedom in Europe never fought for it here. The AARP wants government control a police state and we now have what the nazi’s did in europe.
Hope they are happy.
There is no one left, to free America.
When of IF they are found not guilty, they will get their property back.
Forfeiture Endangers American Rights
Unlike criminal proceedings, which place a high burden of proof on the prosecution and presume defendants are innocent until proven guilty, civil forfeiture cases force defendants to prove their property is innocent if they wish to get it back."It's a terrible law," said Allen Lichtenstein, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada. "Here you have a situation where the government can seize property by alleging criminal activity, yet he (Mr. Olsen) says he's not concerned about the criminal charges? ... The place to prove these allegations is in a criminal case, where the defendant receives due process and reasonable doubt."
Forfeiture laws have been abused in Nevada and elsewhere for years, allowing authorities to grab homes, cash, cars and other valuable property from innocent citizens who have never been found guilty of a criminal offense.
In 1993, the U.S. Supreme Court held that civil forfeitures are no different from criminal fines, and financial penalties that are disproportionate to a crime violate the Eighth Amendment protection against excessive fines. The notion that Ms. Howard, guilty only of a misdemeanor pot possession charge, should lose her home and forfeit more than $300,000 is abominable.
The issue is that they are being punished (fined) through the forfeiture before being found guilty or having the opportunity to defend themselves in an open court of law.
Interesting from the NORFED web page:
“REAL Money You Can Trust
A national network of thousands of Liberty Associates, Merchants and Regional Currency Offices already exists to assist you. There is probably someone near you already. Now you can protect your money and profit. You and your family need not be at risk of a currency crisis. With the Liberty Dollar you have guaranteed protection because it is 100% backed and 100% redeemable in gold and silver. It’s REAL money! Plus, it is exciting to use your “own money” and be in a position of power over your affairs.”
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, backed by gold & silver instead of just printing money on the “promise & good faith backing” like the U.S.treasury does. What a unique concept!!!!
The days of creating your own currency has been of for many, many decades. These characters should be tried and the fake currency confiscated.
They’re law breakers.
What a scam. If you don’t want your stuff seized, don’t break the law. A $20 coin was only backed by about $15 in silver.
Gold and Silver in the mold of coins are fake currency?
Every once in a while, I come across that coin, and wonder what good is it? It certainly appears to be made of real silver--but I don't know that for sure.
At the moment, I don't know where it is--I've stuck it some place, but have no idea where.
If it were my money that had been stolen, I would darn sure want the law to seize the assets, to prevent the criminals from hiding it overseas. Thank goodness I was too smart to be defrauded by this silly Ponzi scheme in the first place.
Now that the remaining assets were seized, at least some of the victims will be able to recover some of their losses. What they are not able to recover, will serve to remind them that crooks and frauds will use any pretense to steal their money. Let us hope the expense of their lesson will be worth it in the end.
Reading the application for the warrant I had to laugh when the FBI agent said Liberty used what they called worthless FRN’s (Federal Reserve Notes) for some of their membership transactions.
Isn’t this the same deal that has the “ron paul” dollars? Didn’t the paulbearers also just get caught with so me sort of credit card scam?
Great bunch there!
Why should private currency be illegal? The feds are attacking them on 'mail fraud' charges, but there is no fraud involved. They are not pushing this currency as federal currency. They are clear this is a local currency and there was no intent on copying federal currency as the feds will have to show. There are serious holes in the charges. The organization is perfectly in their rights to speak out against the federal reserve and the IRS. I would also push the first amendment angle that the use of this currency is a political statement and is protected speech.
Why should private currency be illegal? The feds are attacking them on 'mail fraud' charges, but there is no fraud involved. They are not pushing this currency as federal currency. They are clear this is a local currency and there was no intent on copying federal currency as the feds will have to show. There are serious holes in the charges. The organization is perfectly in their rights to speak out against the federal reserve and the IRS. I would also push the first amendment angle that the use of this currency is a political statement and is protected speech.
Some are selling for about $30 on e-bay.
If it is one oz of silver it is worth approximately $14.25 + or -.
So a half oz would be $7.12 or so.
Do you have a reference to this credit card scam? Or is it just a rumor?
That seizure warrant is one of the biggest lies I have seen in a long time. It is a direct violation of the Constitution, but then it is the government and they care less about the Constitution only their own big time money and names in the papers. Guess they will use the gold, silver and platinum to buy luxury trips for the public servants.
From: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
“A number of alternative currencies exist in the United States, including the Liberty Dollar, Phoenix Dollars, Ithaca Hours, and digital gold currency. Unlike most other alternative currencies, both Liberty Dollars and Phoenix Dollars are denominated by weight and backed by a commodity. Phoenix Dollars are backed exclusively by silver, while Liberty Dollars may be backed by gold or silver. Liberty Dollars differ from other alternative currencies in that they carry a suggested US dollar face value.
Community currencies may present problems for users because there is little to stop the issuer from producing more currency.[5] The primary difference between the Liberty Dollar and Hours is that Liberty Dollars are backed by an objective measure — a weight in metal.”
Nonsense. Merchants have made a fortune through the creation of their own private currencies. Though I am curious about something...
Some states have laws that require that gift cards never expire. While such laws may be well-intentioned, I see a problem: suppose I buy a $100 gift card and immediately spend $99.99 of it (leaving $0.01 so I can keep physical possession of the card). Does the merchant have to keep the records of how I spent the $99.99 forever in case I decide, fifty years from now, to try to redeem the card and complain when the merchant only offers me $0.01?
A merchant's expenses associated with keeping records on a card with a $100 balance should be well below the interest earned on that $100. But the expenses associated with keeping records on how $99.99 was spent could be substantially greater than the interest earned on a $0.01 balance.
The "fake" currency is the FRN.
Unconstitutional.
And backed by nothing but thin air.
I'd take a currency backed by something of value over a fiat currency ANY day.
That's why the banksters can't let this stand.
WHAT? FRACTIONAL RESERVE? HOW DAAAAAARE THEY TRY THAT SCAM!
uhhhhh, wate a minute....
I was working at a place of business a few years back, where they were selling those (to whomever was interested in them). I think I got one, too, but I don’t know where it is now. Maybe it will be a collector’s item now... LOL!
Well, back then when a business I was working at sold them, I remember reading up on it back then. There’s a good reason for selling it with just $15 worth of silver in it. That’s — very simply — so you don’t have a lot of people melting them down and grabbing the silver content as the silver content price rises over time. There was a mechanism in place (can’t remember exactly how it went though) in which they did verify that they had, in vaults which were audited and verified, enough silver to back every bit of money that they took in, for purposes of this coin. So, it wasn’t really a bad deal, actually.
Heck, if I could find mine now (wherever it went ... LOL), I would have more than the value of what I paid for it, for sure. That’s better than I can say for the value of a U.S. dollar coin or a quarter or other U.S. coin.
Do you make the same protest when it is drug dealers' money that is seized before being found guilty or having the opportunity to defend themselves in an open court of law?
Are the paper certificates they issue actually backed by the gold they claim them to be?
That's ridiculous. A hard currency is backed up 100%. A $20 coin is backed up by $20 worth of silver. These dollars used to be a $10 denomination when the price of silver was below $10, but as the price of silver rose they changed the denomination to $20 so they could still capture the difference. Read the application for warrant, and I hope for your sake that the statute of limitations has run out.
Setting aside the mail fraud and other charges, and just looking at your assertion, I'm wondering how it is supposed to be interpreted when the coins have "TWENTY DOLLARS," and "$20" and "USA" on them?
I have 100s of silver rounds, they all say "one ounce fine silver," but they don't say "TWENTY DOLLARS," "$20" etc.
This private mint would have benn in no trouble with its coins (ignoring the mail fraud etc for now) if they had not put on the "TWENTY DOLLARS," "$20," and "USA."
Here's a fairly typical "silver round," you can buy and sell these all day long, because they are only claiming to be what they are: an ounce of silver, and not "TWENTY DOLLARS #20 USA".
We shall see.
What I found to be totally lacking in the search warrant affidavit was any assertion that anyone had been defrauded or that there had been any complaints from consumers, merchants, the public, or anyone. This even though there were numerous undercover agents at Liberty. It appears that no one has felt that they were deceived or defrauded.
[The justification lists charges of money laundering, mail fraud, and wire fraud.
Guilty until proven innocent, apparently.]
Ahhh, the warrant request MUST list potential charges with specificity. Its one of those crazy law things. Are you paranoid?
Free Sliver 16:1
So many posts, so much ignorance of the Constitution and laws thereunder.
There's no scam involved whatsoever. The coin is not money, and they're not promising any value equivalent to the purchase price, other than what the buyer sees it's worth. The value of the feds, including the judg that perpetrated this offence to freedom is a big negative.
Uh, you mean alleged or suspected "drug dealers" like the landscaper whose cash which he was carrying to purchase trees and supplies was forfeited?
Willie Jones, an African American landscaper, had the misfortune to experience this humiliation.(5) He had $9600 in cash seized from him at the Nashville airport simply because he fit a so called "drug courier profile" - that is, an African American paying for a round-trip airline ticket with cash. He actually planned to use the money to by landscape materials.
They didn't find any drugs, didn't arrest him, didn't charge him with anything, but they kept the money anyway because they thought he might buy drugs with it, and it took him two years of legal battle to get it back.
Yes, I make the same protest!
danged fat fingers. *grumble* *grumble* *grumble*
The only place where you're going to pay spot price for silver is if you bring $7,125 in cash to New York City first thing Monday morning along with a handcart suitable for carting off your 500-ounce (~34 pound) ingot of silver.
That's what the "spot price" is.
For comparison, the US Mint charges $29.95 for a one-ounce silver cameo proof of comparable luster to the $20 one-ounce Liberty Dollar, and $22 for their "uncirculated" one-ounce silver dollars.
What "victims?" What "losses?" What "theft?"
If you sent in $20 plus shipping, you got back a one ounce 0.999 fine silver medallion with a frosted cameo proof finish, something for which the US Mint charges you $29.95 plus shipping.
Or, you got back a beautifully crafted negotiable warehouse receipt (Uniform Commercial Code Section 7) for one ounce of 0.999 fine silver stored at a bonded warehouse in Coeur d'Aleine Idaho, which you could redeem on demand.
Where's the fraud? Where's the theft?
The lack of assets to back the certificates as alleged in the duly processed warrant. Why be emotional about the matter when the plain facts are present?
As to the true of the allegations, that's for the courts to decide. But you seem to have made a knee-jerk decision on the matter before having all of the facts. Interesting way to approach life.
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