Posted on 11/25/2007 5:22:34 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
It’s not like murder in that regard. An independent individual murders another independent individual; a fetus is not independent; it is of the flesh of the mother
~~~~~
As evidenced by the numerous people charged for the killing of the unborn, I’d say you’re behind the times.
http://johncoleman.typepad.com/ex_nihilo/images/fetus_picture.jpg
In any event, this is a conservative site, as prescribed by the founder and owner. Among the principles supported here and documented on the homepage are these: “As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, ....”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1103363/posts
But until that baby is born, it is not independent of the mother -- and the best way I can think to put that is that it is the flesh of the mother -- its existence depends directly on her. I don't care about DNA and all that.
The TRUTH, however, is indifferent to your and my shared conviction that abortion is murder. The truth is that women and girls who find themselves pregnant when they don't want it have always and will always seek abortions. Like homosexuality, it's a human weakness, a failing. It is in truth between the woman, an abortionist, and God; neither you nor I nor Eternal Vigilance nor the woman's family or friends or clergy have a place in it, even though we think we should have one. The truth is, we don't and never will. That is TRUTH and reality.
The Constitution as written made it clear that the states give free men the ability to hone the Rule of Law to their own chosen fine-tune-points of morality. There are many, many, many Americans who do not think abortion is not the moral equivalent of murder. The RULE OF LAW within the Constitution says States each have the right to determine laws with regard to murder, and as abortion (unlike any other form of murder) can by definition be carried out with absolutly NONE knowing except the mother and abortionist, clearly it is not capable of being subject to the same legal treatment as conventional murder.
When any political party or group tries to override the Rule of Law, no matter the good intentions, it is a bad thing.
As for the HLA, it would be pretty and nice in what we think is the sight of God and would also soothe our earthly vanity. But think about it -- every one of us is contributing financially to infanticide every day because of Rule of Man (Roe v Wade) that forces our tax dollars to fund abortion. Now I think Eternal Vigilance and 100 percenters would perhaps be a prettier sight in the eyes of God, and a lot more convincing to me, if they went to jail rather than pay taxes for such an abomination.
But they don't, and that tells me something.
Roe v Wade should be overturned and returned to the states for that very reason. Because then people can deal with this essentially moral issue (as opposed to criminal issue) in moral terms. Federal government has no place when it comes to legislating personal morality. That's the province of the states -- you don't like prostitution, don't move to Nevada.
I was responding to this statement:
It’s not like murder in that regard. An independent individual murders another independent individual; a fetus is not independent; it is of the flesh of the mother
~~~~~
???
Good one!
Do you read the Day in the Life of the President thread? If so, you realize that President Bush is in the company of reporters and TV cameras every day. What gets reported to the American public is that he lied, troops died, Republicans lost in 2006 and are going to lose in 2008 because of Bush... on and on. What does not get reported are the words he speaks, the policies he promotes, and the views he holds.
For example, he has presented three Congressional Medals of Honor to families of heroes. Do any Americans even know the names of these men, nevermind seeing a picture of the presentation?. No, because that might reflect favorably on this president, and that is considered “spreading partisan propaganda” by our major media.
How would granting interviews to reporters who only live to get the “soundbite” help cut through the storyline that the DBM insist on maintaining.
Did you see the interview that W and Laura gave Charlie Gibson last week at Camp David? It was carried on the evening news of whatever channel he is on. Reporters only want the gotcha question, the opportunity for Bush to apologize for living in the White House!
A visit to Oprah, or The View, or Larry King, or the Daily Show, or Letterman? Rather demeaning for a president, and an opportunity for more snubbing and mockery by the uninformed public.
I take it that puddings last a long time? Comes in handy!
Sweet potatoes not English, I assume. How did you like it?
lmao..........that’s excellent
Murder in all other cases involves whole, independent individuals. Somebody goes missing. When the murdered invividual is discovered missing or murdered, someone is held accountable.
In the case of abortion, a woman or girl discovers she's pregnant and keeps it all to herself -- especially easy now in these days of instant pregnancy tests. That woman decides to get an abortion; the only other person who even knows of the existence of that unborn person is the abortionist. No one "goes missing," so no one is held accountable.
Shall we therefore have laws that outlaw pregnancy tests, require doctors who diagnose pregnancy in a woman to immediately register that fact with the government, and if that woman has a miscarriage, will there be required government hearings to determine that it wasn't murder?
God makes it pretty clear that while we can and should do what we can to create a society where the spiritual foundation shuns abortion, the reality and truth is that in the case of abortion, it is a question of personal morality of one woman, one abortionist, and Him; like suicide, we cannot derive a rule-of-law place in it no matter how nobly we try. However we attempt to prevent abortion must take another path. Legally, working through the rule of law, the most we can do is to pass a Federal law making the performance of abortions the equivalent of committing murder. But the truth is -- again, an inconvenient truth but true nonetheless -- is that a scared 14-year-old or a world-weary 35-year-old who's already got three kids and a husband she doesn't like, and a soft-hearted but atheist doctor who truly believes he's doing either a kindness, are a very far cry from a man who rapes and murders a little girl or a woman who kills her husband for his insurance policy.
My belief is that overturning Roe v. Wade is a RETURN STEP to that path from which we've strayed so badly.
10 baked sweet potatoes, peeled and cut into pieces
2/3 cup 1/2 and 1/2 cream
1/2 cup honey
Touch of sorghum molasses or maple syrup
1 /4 pound semi-softened butter cut into small pieces
2 tsp ground cinnamon
1 tsp freshly ground nutmeg
Dash each of ground cloves and ginger
1 ounce Brandy
Beat with electric mixer in large bowl until smooth
Place in buttered casserole dish and dot with pecans
Bake at 375 (F) for about 50 minutes +/- 10
IMHO you are being more than a little disingenuous here, since it is Thompson's lack of support for the HLA which seems to be the reason you oppose him and National Right to Life's endorsemenmt of him.
woman decides to get an abortion; the only other person who even knows of the existence of that unborn person is the abortionist. No one “goes missing,” so no one is held accountable.
~~~~~
I couldn’t disagree more. I believe that every soul is known and precious to God.
“The word of the Lord came to [Jeremiah], saying:
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you.”
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Wrong. My criticism of Thompson, Romney, McCain, Paul, and Huckabee has primarily been because they’ve mouthed this Stephen A. Douglas, Jerry Ford, foolishness, claiming that states’ rights supercede unalienable rights.
It is those who continually argue with me who keep bringing up the HLA as a crude distraction from the more important issue of whether our Constitution already protects unborn persons, as the Reagan pro-life platform asserts.
I thought Thompson looked and sounded good today on Fox Sunday.
Every soul is known and precious to God, NOT MAN. Every soul will NEVER be known and precious to man; it is solely God's purview, NOT YOURS OR MINE OR THAT OF SELF-PROCLAIMED MORAL LEADERS. That's the point. All of man's laws and rules and moral policing will not change that that ONLY God knows every soul.
Your "righteous" pursuit of sharing that role with God and presuming to "help" him in terms of judgement, clearly require the outlawing of over-the-counter pregnancy tests, you clearly require that all doctors who diagnose pregnancy in a woman to immediately report it to authorities, and you clearly require that any miscarriage undergo investigation to ensure that it was not the result of murder.
Unalienable Rights are part of a line in a great document. States' Rights is in the Constitutiion and has the force of law, as Lincoln agreed. It took a Civil War killing 500,000 people, and Amendments to the Constitution to modify that. It may be that to accomplish what you want will take a thermonuclear Civil War, but we are not there yet, and I hope we won't get there. In the meantime I will support our federal system as our best defense against tyranny, and save those I can within its limits.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."
The whole of the Constitution is premised on its Preamble, which describes the purposes of the document:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
"Posterity," of course, is composed of those who are not yet born. The framers placed their posterity's rights to life and liberty on an equal basis with their own.
Then, in the heart of the original Bill of Rights, in the Fifth Amendment, we find the prohibition on killing those who have not been charged, tried and convicted on a capital offense:
"No person shall be...deprived of life...without due process of law..."
And, if that is not clear enough for you or anyone else, we have the words of the Fourteenth Amendment which, in the aftermath of the war that should have settled once and for all that the words of the Declaration apply to all of those who are created in God's Image, it is made clear that the protection of all innocent human life is also a duty shared by the states, and that all persons share in the unalienable right to the equal protection of the laws.:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Accepting the devaluation and
destruction of life, all life,
in our culture and grievously
offending God could only be acceptable
to someone who isn’t a person
of faith.
I’m not presuming to do anything but
hopefully uphold God’s laws, among
them respecting the sanctity of life.
Your snarky comment of “self-styled
moral leaders” and the rest of your
verbage is overkill, as it relates
to anything I’ve said. You’re doing
quite a bit of parsing.
It’s simple really .. no further discussion
is needed. You’re either a person of faith
or you’re not.
If you’re not, that’s fine for you. Either
way, as I said, the discussion is over.
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