American Brain Drain (U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by.)

Wall Street Journal ^ | 27 November 2007 | Editorial Staff

[shrinkermd]

One myth dogging the immigration debate is that employers are fibbing (or grossly exaggerating) when they claim that hiring foreign professionals is unavoidable because U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by. But a new report on doctorates from U.S. universities shows they're telling the truth, and then some.

Foreign-born students holding temporary visas received 33% of all research doctorates awarded by U.S. universities in 2006, according to an annual survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. That number has climbed from 25% in 2001. But more to the point of business competitiveness, foreign students comprised 44% of science and engineering doctorates last year.

"China was the country of origin for the largest number of non-U.S. doctorates in 2006," says the report, followed by India, Korea, Taiwan and Canada. "The percentage of doctorates earned by U.S. citizens ranged from lows of 32% in engineering and 47% in physical sciences, to highs of 87% in education and 78% in humanities." Given this reality, is it any wonder that 40% of Ph.D.s working in U.S. science and engineering occupations are foreign-born?

Immigration opponents still claim that the likes of Intel and Oracle merely want to hire Chinese engineers on the cheap. In fact, U.S. law already prohibits companies from paying these foreign nationals less than natives. And all other things being equal, the American job applicant has an advantage because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire.

[mysterio]

More open borders nonsense from the WSJ. Big surprise there. Thanks, Rupert.

[1rudeboy]

Why is this “open borders nonsense?”

[HKMk23]

U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by.

So, according to the Laws of Supply and Demand, they're being more highly compensated owing to their greater worth??

[RightWhale]

For some no doubt good reason, Americans don’t see a doctorate as the key to a decent career anymore. For foreign nationals it is exactly the key, but Americans have other options.

[1rudeboy]

Yeah, that’s how it works. Unless you are an astro-physicist, or hold a Ph.D in some other area with no practical application.

[Alberta's Child]

There's a lot of truth to what they say here -- particularly about the extra cost of hiring a foreigner with an H1-B visa. My company has done that occassionally, and believe me -- it's an enormous pain in the @ss and only done as a last resort.

Companies like Oracle and Intel sure don't need foreigners to suppress labor costs in the U.S. In fact, wasn't it some big shot from Intel who recently pointed out that his company could hire cheap foreign labor IN THOSE FOREIGN COUNTRIES to do most of the work they need these folks to do?

[SatinDoll]

This is so ridiculous. People here don’t seek PhD degrees because they aren’t necessary for the vast number of jobs available. There is such a thing as being overeducated.

When a person doesn’t know it is impossible, well they just go right on ahead and do it. I’ve come to the conclusion that most college educations teach you what isn’t possible.

[mysterio]

Why is this “open borders nonsense?”

Because it's another piece of propaganda desigened to pressure congress to raise the H1B limit so corporations can hire cheaper Indian and Chinese engineers instead of Americans.

[Shermy]

WSJ

Wage Supression Journal

“In fact, U.S. law already prohibits companies from paying these foreign nationals less than natives.”

LOL. Just dummy up some job ads at lower wages, make job specs so specific they fit the foreigner, SOP.

“And all other things being equal,”

I bet they’re not since they aren’t detailed, and are those “fees” only a one time shot? How come business aren’t failing with the HB1 cap level where it is now?

I’m not even sure people are complaining about

[Zhang Fei]

Foreign-born students holding temporary visas received 33% of all research doctorates awarded by U.S. universities in 2006, according to an annual survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. That number has climbed from 25% in 2001. But more to the point of business competitiveness, foreign students comprised 44% of science and engineering doctorates last year.

This may not be because there aren't enough American applicants, but because these universities won't accept a lot of American ones. I wonder what the Chinese people would say if 44% of doctorate candidates accepted into Chinese graduate schools were foreigners. Or what Americans would say if 44% of college slots were reserved for foreigners.

[1rudeboy]

Because it's another piece of propaganda desigened to pressure congress to raise the H1B limit so corporations can hire cheaper Indian and Chinese engineers instead of Americans.

You mean the Americans we're not graduating, and the Indian and Chinese we are . . . who then return to their home countries? That doesn't sound like good public policy.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about about the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

[Maceman]

One myth dogging the immigration debate is that Americans are opposed to legal immigration, and to encouraging foreign Ph.D. candidates to our shores.

This article does a nice job of perpetuating that myth, when the legal importation of skilled talent is not the issue at all.

[RightWhale]

The first is the correct choice. Americans just don’t apply for doctoral programs in technical disciplines in great numbers.

[1rudeboy]

How come business aren’t failing with the HB1 cap level where it is now?

According to this article, Microsoft announced it is opening a software development center in Vancouver. Canadians are not known for being less "expensive" than us.

[depressed in 06]

Only foreigners are dumb enough to go in the technical disciplines. Americans know that the real action is the law. Science and business is all evil. At least that is was I have learned reading the press and watching tv.

[shrinkermd]

"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

"Confirmation bias is an area of interest in the teaching of critical thinking as the skill is misused if rigorous critical scrutiny is applied only to evidence challenging a preconceived idea but not to evidence supporting the same preconception.

From Wikipedia.

[Chi-townChief]

My brother will get his PhD in a year or two; all he has left is his dissertation (which is quite a bit, from what I hear.)

[PsyOp]

With all those PHD’s in education you’d think we’d be turning out more scientists and engineers instead burger flippers.

Kinda sets one to thinking...

[aruanan]

And all other things being equal, the American job applicant has an advantage because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire.

But the universities still cannot discriminate in favor of the American job applicant and wind up paying these huge fees and hating it. I know this for a fact.

[RobbyS]

Many of the Native Americans in graduate schools are in the “soft” sciences,” like psychlogy, sociology and education. This would be the field preferred by women, who are now the majority in higher education. They don’t like engineering and science.

[shrinkermd]

In the far distant past those entering Education were on the low end of Graduate Record Examination. I imagine that is still true, but if anyone has information pro or con, please post.

[blam]

My son, who has a PhD in physics, was heavily recruited by US defense contractors, while still in college.

Now that he has a Top Secret clearance and is working on sensitive military projects...makes lots of sense for them to hire a red-blooded American for that job.

[RobbyS]

I have no recent information, either. But education majors typically are not high achievers on the SAT or the GRE.

[mtbopfuyn]

Or what Americans would say if 44% of college slots were reserved for foreigners.

We have a winner. Just look at most any college web site and you'll see they clearly state that US citizenship is not considered and they'll ignore legal status, that they are looking to diversify, they are looking for students with some sort of impoverished or third world culture and bilingual. Consider the university's bottom line - tuition from an in-state student or tuition from one from out of the country.

[Utah Binger]

Sorry to report this to you but a doctorate in anything but medicine is a POS. Especially in liberal arts. Might add philosophy, history, language, marketing etc. Just an excuse to stay in college spending daddy’s money.

As a young sales manager for Xerox, I had Harvard and Stanford big shots working for me. Elitist stupidity rules in their fake world of make believe.

Real entrepreneurs in America don’t need the elitist phonies from the worthless universities posing as education in this country.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

Because it's another piece of propaganda desigened to pressure congress to raise the H1B limit so corporations can hire cheaper Indian and Chinese engineers instead of Americans.

Your view appears to be at odds with what's printed in the article:

"Immigration opponents still claim that the likes of Intel and Oracle merely want to hire Chinese engineers on the cheap. In fact, U.S. law already prohibits companies from paying these foreign nationals less than natives. And all other things being equal, the American job applicant has an advantage because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire."

Can you substantiate your position? Quite frankly, I don't believe you're correct - and I'm a US citizen working in the engineering field.

[Oshkalaboomboom]

There's a lot of truth to what they say here -- particularly about the extra cost of hiring a foreigner with an H1-B visa. My company has done that occassionally, and believe me -- it's an enormous pain in the @ss and only done as a last resort.

If it's such a pain why are there law firms making big bucks for holding seminars on how to get around hiring Americans so they can bring in H1-B visa workers?

[shrinkermd]

Well, they might be wanting to diversify according to nationality, but my guess is they, deep down, are trying to recruit the best and brightest of the age cohort. JMO

[G8 Diplomat]

U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by.

That's true...I had a bunch of PhD's come speak to us in math class about research projects they were doing, and only one of them was American-born. And when I went through the hallways where their offices were, most of the names were foreign. There were Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Turks, Poles, Serbs, Germans, and one name that I couldn't recognize but looked slightly Middle Eastern or Indian....but very few Americans.

[attiladhun2]

Elitist stupidity rules in their fake world of make believe.

Hear! Hear! Maybe Americans have better sense than to waste time and money for essentially overblown PhDs, which my pappy used to say means their BS is just Piled Higher and Deeper.

[familyop]

PhD.s are plentiful in Russia, and they’ll work for $20 an hour. Get all of your electrical engineers in China and your computer science graduates in India and Islamist countries. ;-)

The best way to bust the trend at this stage of the game is to encourage it. I pray that oil will go to $200 per barrel and that the dollar will be worth one-tenth of what it’s worth very soon. ;-)

Go for it, Friends! Or get serious about dealing with Iran and increase US manufacturing soon! Vote for Duncan Hunter.

[VOA]

American Brain Drain (U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by.)

They aren't idiots.
They've gone to law school, med school.
Or are flipping houses, doing high-end auto mechanics or HVAC.

And I don't blame them.

[mysterio]

Your view appears to be at odds with what's printed in the article:

Well, I find that pretty likely, considering depressing the wages of US engineers isn't a goal of mine.

because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire.

I suppose that would be offest pretty easily by the lower wage and decreased benefits that foreign engineers would probably accept.

Shortages of workers in pretty much every field can be solved by offering a higher wage.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

This may not be because there aren't enough American applicants, but because these universities won't accept a lot of American ones.

Since foreign born students only receive 33% of all research doctorates, and assuming graduation rates among foreign and US students are roughly the same, universities are obviously accepting a lot of American applicants.

But I imagine the number of Chinese and Indian students accepted into doctoral programs in the hard sciences and engineering fields is higher - these subjects don't seem to enjoy much popularity among American students. And I certainly see no problem with universities accepting highly qualified foreigners - they aren't taking a spot from qualified Americans, they're taking a spot that otherwise wouldn't be filled at all. Doctoral programs in engineering and science can't be filled by some "US first" quota system if they expect to maintain any quality these days - qualified applicants must possess both a passion to do worthwhile research and the brains to do it - not many of them around, regardless of nationality.

[familyop]

"...because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire."

That's not much to pay to support one's all-important vanity. "Yassa, massa! Here. Borrow my wife! Call me names. Threaten to deport me every day! Or if I'm working for you in my own country, have me hauled away by the secret police!"

Imagine being a feudal king or queen, worshipping yourself and stomping on your domestic neighbors whenever you like. ;-)

[p. henry]

It’s starts early, my friends. This year my daughter’s senior class had 16 merit scholarship semifinalists and 26 commended students (including my daughter). Of those 42 students, 18 had Asian surnames, and my daughter’s school does not have a particularly large concentration of Asians. They are just more focused on education and work harder.

[shrinkermd]

I guess those cheap Russian doctorates have a few big winners like Sergey Brin:

"Brin was born in Moscow, in the Soviet Union to a Jewish family, the son of Michael Brin, a mathematician, and his mother, an economist. In 1979, when Brin was six, his family immigrated to the United States.

Brin attended grade school at Paint Branch Montessori School in Adelphi, Maryland, but he received further education at home; his father, a professor in the department of mathematics at the University of Maryland, nurtured his interest in mathematics and his family helped him retain his Russian-language skills. In September 1990, after having attended Eleanor Roosevelt High School, Brin enrolled in the University of Maryland, College Park to study computer science and mathematics, where he received his Bachelor of Science degree in May 1993 with high honors.

After graduating from Maryland, Brin received a graduate fellowship from the National Science Foundation, which allowed him to study for his master's degree in computer science at Stanford University. Brin received his master's degree in August 1995 ahead of schedule in the process of his Ph.D. studies. Although he is still enrolled in the Stanford doctoral program, Brin has suspended his Ph.D. studies indefinitely while he is working at Google.

[VOA]

“...makes lots of sense for them to hire a red-blooded American for that job.”

I’m glad to hear that.
I just wish the EPA would out-source their background check and
security investigations to The United States Military.
After reading the linked article.
(and even if the story is from World Net Daily)

Is U.S. gov’t infested with terrorist moles?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1928758/posts
excerpt:
“...Waheeda Tehseen, a Pakistani national who obtained a sensitive position
with the EPA in Washington as a toxicologist even though she was not
a U.S. citizen.
(snip)
Tehseen lied about her citizenship on her government application,
a falsehood that the government failed – in both cases – to catch in
its security background investigation.
In hiring Tehseen in 1998, the EPA also missed another red flag in
her file – her husband’s ties to Pakistani intelligence, which
has a long history of clandestine support for both the Taliban
and al-Qaida.
(snip)
FBI investigators say that while Tehseen had access to classified
information as a toxicologist, she and her husband ran a charitable
front for Osama bin Laden’s inner circle in Peshawar, Pakistan.

[whipitgood]

Another part of the problem is the BS you have to go through to get the degree. Mrs. Whipitgood is currently enrolled in the BSN (Batchelor of Science Nursing) degree program at a local college. We are amazed at the political garbage that goes along with classroom presentation. Most of the other students just sigh and roll their eyes when it starts, but don’t dare take issue with the teacher. Opposing the ideology of the teacher is a good way to flunk out, regardless of performance in the class.

[familyop]

Ah, but Brin is not in Russia while looking for work with US companies.

[AnotherUnixGeek]

Shortages of workers in pretty much every field can be solved by offering a higher wage.

Higher wages aren't going to increase the quality of high school education, which is where the problem begins. Too many American students go to college and encounter mathematics, science and engineering courses that they are not adequately prepared for - a lot who might be interested in technology decide they can't hack it and go with softer subjects.

American universities as a whole are probably the best in the world, which is why so many foreign students want to study here. But the American education system is nowhere near turning out enough qualified high-school students to saturate the engineering and science schools in our universities to the point of denying foreigners admission. Small wonder that qualified foreigners step into the breech, and if they decide to stay and become Americans, that's a positive in my view.

[The_Reader_David]

In the fields where it matters—science, mathematics, engineering, mathematical finance—there’s a good reason there are relatively few American Ph.D.’s: American K-12 mathematics and science education sucks. Of developed countries, only Canada does a worse job.

The worst of it is not that the K-12 schools fail to adequately teach real mathematics and science, but that the corrupt version they communicate (cf. recent threads on ‘Fuzzy Math’) kills the natural curiosity of students, so that by the time they hit university, it’s almost impossible to clean up the mess the lower schools have made of their reasoning ability.

Labor market protectionism in this area is a lousy idea: had it been implemented in the 1930’s and 40’s, Einstein, vonNeumann, Fermi, . . . would have gone somewhere else. The fix is to fix the K-12 schools, which will require a major shift in public attitude to overcome the entrenched interests that want to keep them in their current horrid state.

[Utah Binger]

but don’t dare take issue with the teacher

Power in the classroom never translates to real life. We need to have a revolution regarding education as we are now totally backwards. Wish I had the answer.

[familyop]

"American universities as a whole are probably the best in the world,..."

...nothing like having instructors who screech against "males" so hard that spittle lands on the students. And the foreign students said, "Yassa, Massa! Give us more!"

[mysterio]

Higher wages aren't going to increase the quality of high school education, which is where the problem begins.

I don't believe that. You get out what you put in. That means students and parents will have to take the initiative to get the best education possible. Many don't. I did. I went to public schools and did fine. When I got to college and encountered subjects I wasn't prepared for, I studied.

Too many American students go to college and encounter mathematics, science and engineering courses that they are not adequately prepared for - a lot who might be interested in technology decide they can't hack it and go with softer subjects.

I'm sure a lot wouldn't choose law, either, if the salary wasn't such a strong incentive.

American universities as a whole are probably the best in the world, which is why so many foreign students want to study here. But the American education system is nowhere near turning out enough qualified high-school students to saturate the engineering and science schools in our universities to the point of denying foreigners admission. Small wonder that qualified foreigners step into the breech, and if they decide to stay and become Americans, that's a positive in my view.

Mine, too. But I don't want to lift the cap with the goal of undercutting the salaries of American engineers. Then even fewer students will pursue engineering degrees, and the WSJ and cheap labor lobbies will petition the government to raise the H1B cap again.

[scrabblehack]

Also, if you’re getting a Ph.D., it’s a really good idea to already have a job. If a professor on your dissertation committee tries to flunk you just because he can, someone from your company’s university relations office can help resolve the problem. If you’re paying your own way, you are out of luck.

[1rudeboy]

I'm sure a lot wouldn't choose law, either, if the salary wasn't such a strong incentive.

Don't forget that we are up to our eyeballs in lawyers, and not all make enough money to wear those spiffy clothes you see them wearing on TV. Besides, a lawyer needs three years of post-graduate education (which itself drives them deeper in debt). I'd wager that an electrical engineer with a four-year Bachelor's makes, on average, as much as a lawyer with a J.D.

[Chickensoup]

When people do not have anything that they can invest in, they educate themselves.

[Chickensoup]

Also the little detail that Asians have a higher mean IQ than Americans.