Your tactic wouldn’t work on this road. It is the main road linking Kabul to Pakistan via Jalalabad. This did not take place inside the city, but in a fairly open area. I’ve gone jogging within sight and easy rifle range of this road many times.
At no time before or since has there been any indication the enemy is capable of putting together an ambush running for miles along the road, nor would there be any reason to do so immediately next to a major FOB with regular helicopter patrols and helicopters on alert. There are regular patrols going into bad guy country nearby offering excellent conditions for an ambush, except for the fact that it is still uncomfortably close to the FOB.
There are also regular patrols going into bad guy country not too far away that ARE ambushed because the terrain is so favorable...remember, the Pech River and Tora Bora are close to Jalalabad. The Korengal Valley isn’t too far away, and a number of men have been killed during operations there within the last few months.
One of the things the Army guys I talked to frequently mentioned (not in response to this incident) was the need to match training with the role expected in theater. If you spend 6 months training to kick ass no questions asked, and are put into an area where counterinsurgency tactics say ‘work with the locals and pass up opportunities unless you are completely certain of the target’...bad things will happen, particularly during the first few months.
There is more that will be covered by the official investigation. I’ve made comments on this thread because I think people should be aware that sometimes - certainly not always, and I would NEVER trust a press report about anything the military does - but sometimes people do the wrong thing, and this may well be one of those cases. We’re not talking about a press driven circus based on civilian accounts.
The military already has done a lot of investigating, and has already decided to pull the unit out of country and fire some individuals. It has been investigated by several services.
Even the General in the article here is not saying nothing bad happened - “Hejlik, however, stopped short of clearing the Marines of any blame in the incident, saying he could not speak to what may have happened after the initial ambush, when the unit was returning to their base.”
And frankly, I don’t know of anyone who was excessively concerned with the initial response. We KNOW they were hit by a VBIED, and they might have taken fire in the immediate area. The focus of concern is what happened as they made their way BACK to Jalalabad.
Believe what you want, but this is not a case of mean Army guys or butt-kissing paper pushers conducting a witch hunt based on press accounts.
How many VBIED ambushes have been thwarted by the helicopters? Weren't they on patrol that day?
Why wasn't the VBIED bomber intimidated by their close proximity?
Does the FOB span the entire 7 miles?
Do the official reports you have read indicate the Marines were engaged continuously along the entire 7 mile stretch, or sporadically?
The way you are presenting this indicates the Marines gave a picture of insurgents lined up elbow to elbow for 7 straight miles, while you're painting a picture of an FOB of similar length, and every inch of the road being under constant surveillance.
You say there would be "no reason" to put together an ambush, as it's "uncomfortably close" to the FOB. Was this meant tongue in cheek? Obviously, the insurgents aren't playing by that book.
nor would there be any reason to do so immediately next to a major FOB with regular helicopter patrols and helicopters on alert........I’ve gone jogging within sight and easy rifle range of this road many times.
I'm sure that you're right. I used my post as an example of using civilians as cover and the way somebody could use a rolling ambush.
I have no knowledge about the lay of the land on that road. But just an FYI, there are several ways to conduct ambush operations on blocked and unblocked roads. As long as I had time and support of the locals, I'm sure that with IED's, mortars, automatic weapon fire and RPGs I might be able to make parts of a road not fun to jog on. The choppers would be the dicey part of the problem.
But if I wanted to kill choppers with some Igla or strela missiles then I'd make sure the ambush was an easy hop from the airfield.
From what your saying this was just Marines gone wild. The whole unit. I just find it tough to buy what your selling here.
If you spend 6 months training to kick ass no questions asked, and are put into an area where counterinsurgency tactics say ‘work with the locals and pass up opportunities unless you are completely certain of the target’...bad things will happen, particularly during the first few months.
I almost believed some of the stuff you posted till you wrote this cr#p. You don't know anything about Marine or even Army training and are blowing smoke, pal.
I don't know much, but I know counter-insurgency at the tactical level. Learned a little in Indonesia, a little more in Central America and a tiny bit more in Africa and a lot in India.
Marines are never trained to just "Kick ass, no questions asked" The old Marine Corps caveman cr#p went out a long time ago.
Maybe the good officer is showing the locals how much he loves them by bagging the whole unit up for "killing innocent civilians". But there comes a point where the insurgents use our laws against us.
That's what this whole legal flogging for good judgement is doing to us. It inserts a moment of hesitation during a fight that might cripple us and result in soldiers and Marines dying.
I know that it's just the area commander's way of letting the populace know that we don't tolerate the murder of innocent civilians. But the flip side is the morale crushing this does to what may turn out to be a good counter ambush response.
...... Now for the good stuff, I don't know you from a cow pie, but how exactly were you trained to respond to an ambush?
The reason I ask is because of the way you described the Marines as going off without thinking and implying that they lied and they covered up for it. You obviously had the answer and need to educate us, .... me, in the correct response to an ambush.
Believe what you want, but this is not a case of mean Army guys or butt-kissing paper pushers conducting a witch hunt based on press accounts./i>
thanks, I'll believe what I want then.
i'll send the good general the sanitary wipes for his nose and some industrial strength chap stick. ......