Posted on 12/07/2007 4:44:06 AM PST by nuconvert
Great post, nuconvert! I'm all for religious pluralism, not just religious tolerance. It's what America is all about, what the First Amendment is all about. I'm encouraged to learn that there are Muslims in America who value the American concept of the separation of church and state. This key tenet of American political order is a good thing to keep in mind, in the run-up to the 2008 election. I thought Romney's speech yesterday was spot-on in articulating this very theme.
FYI, Mark....
good article, thanks for the ping.
However, on the other side of that s the “good” moslem who believes the radical and entire counsel of the koran...he is what we would call the radical/violent moslem.
The key seems to be how much of the koran a follower of mohammed (pork be upon him) chooses to believe and practice.
Whatever the case and in light of their definition of a "good" moslem, even the moderate (not “goo”) moslem is only a few verses away from jihad. Even not-good/moderate moslems are suspect, especially in light of the koran's explicit instructions to hide the true nature of their beliefs to deceive the infidel!
Your suspicions are well founded. For 1200 years this 'religion' has sought to convert or enslave everyone it's touched.
These so-called 'moderates' are nothing more than a Trojan Horse for the 'radicals'.
Remember, a radical muslim will kill you. A 'moderate' will stand by and watch it happen.
L
This is spot on. As I said above, there may be moderate muslims. But there is no such thing as moderate islam.
It's not a religion. It's an odious political philosophy ever bit as dangerous as Nazism or Communism. We ignore that fact at our peril.
L
Flying Imams and more.
Good read by a Muslim who gets it. Thanks to Sageb1 for the heads up.
“Countering Islamism and combating Islamist terrorism should be a greater public responsibility for the organized American Muslim community than the obsession with civil rights and victimization in which current Islamist organizations engage. Americans living in fear for their security are looking to moderate, traditional Muslims to lead this fight. The credibility of the Muslim community suffers because groups such as CAIR, ISNA, and the North American Imams Federation deny the interplay between Islamism and terrorism.”
“My suspicions are this: why the Hell did it take so long for him to voice his views and what are the motives for the “Middle Eastern Quarterly” to publish it?”
Do a little homework on MEForum and Dr Jasser
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Middle East Quarterly (MEQ) is a quarterly journal devoted to subjects relating to the Middle East. A publication of the American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank Middle East Forum (MEF) founded by Daniel Pipes, the journal was launched in 1994. Edited by Michael Rubin, it is published in print, and all but the current issue are also available as full texts from the website of the Middle East Forum, which does, however, provide links to full texts of some selected current articles as “MEF’s latest releases”.
Dr Jasser served in the Navy and then went to medical school and is now practicing in Arizona, where he just finished serving as President of the Arizona Medical Assoc. He’s still young and a busy guy.
His articles have been posted here on FR for several years, (you can keyword Jasser to find them) and have appeared in the Washington Times, and many other news sources and he has appeared a number of times on TV (FOXNews, Glen Beck), and radio, and also appeared in Frank Gaffney’s documentary, “Islam versus Islamists: Voices from the Muslim Center,” aside from speaking engagements.
He was given an award about 5 wks ago by the Center for Security Policy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1929643/posts
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/home.aspx?sid=62&categoryid=63&newsid=15551
I’ll leave the rest of the research up to you
“2) If Jasser says he has known 3 of the Flying Imams for a decade, then why has he waited so long to expose them?”
The article says that he’s been exposing them for years.
Check keyword ‘Jasser’ in FR’s search for more. He’s had an ongoing public and private battle in Arizona against the Wahhabi/CAIR types there.
“If Jasser is intelligent enough to be able to see through the motives of CAIR, why is he not intelligent enough to see the motives of Muhammed through an historical look at the man?”
I’m taking a wild guess that he’s studied islam more than you have. He’s come to his own decisions based on his faith, and recognizes a need for Islam to go through a revisionist period. He’s spoken on this a number of times, including this article.
Thank you, I welcome that! Just don’t tell me what to do...I’m busy working on my MA in Classical Archaeology in England; I’m an American Christian who had planes flown into my buildings on 9/11 so I’m a little sensitive, as I’ve lived in Manhattan and had drinks on the top at Windows on the World. On September 11, 2001, I was living in New Orleans getting my degree and happened to be working part-time at Touro Synagogue doing admin work when all this shit came down on our American world. Back off..
You obviously have not read my previous post, either...unfortunately you are proving to be true. Why are you attacking me?
“Our Buildings”, I meant “Our Buildings” I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong by moderate Muslims, where is their voice?!
“Just don’t tell me what to do...”
Ever think maybe it was the “why the hell” part of your post that may have resulted in not getting a real friendly opener?
Back off yourself.
Ok Rosie, go back to your leftist site now...in case you don’t recognize it, MoveOn.org, that’s just for you...
I’ve been reading him for a couple of years now. I’m not saying that he’s not a good guy . He is. But I do think there are ways he could have gotten his message out to the mainstream. If I mentioned Middle East Forum to most people, they would be clueless. The problem is that President Bush relied on various members of CAIR and other similar organizations to set policy, as did Clinton before him. That reliance on the wrong individuals may be changing somewhat. I hope so.
How long, do you think, has Jasser truly considered reform in Islam? I could probably go back through some of his stuff and figure it out, but maybe you have that information close at hand? I remember reading something a couple of years ago that defended Islam, but didn’t really espouse making changes in it.
“But I do think there are ways he could have gotten his message out to the mainstream.”
So, you’re faulting him for not doing enough to get his message out sooner and not being able get the MSM to publish him earlier?
He was in the Navy, he got out and went to medical school, he moved to Arizona, got married, had a family, opened a medical practice and then after 911 when everyone finally woke up, somehow managed to find time in between seeing patients, to start writing about the dangers of islamism and begin his campaign in earnest by starting his website and gaining attention from conservative pundits & news outlets. Not easy to do with bias and mistrust from the Right.
I think he’s done a heck of a job. I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t manage a full time medical practice, young family, and travel across the country attending meetings & giving speeches and interviews and write regular articles.
I don’t know where he finds the time or energy. But he is a bit younger than me, so I guess that helps.
Or did he think that defending Islam and trying to convince us that it had been "hijacked" (I hate that term) would be enough?
In other words, did any of the demands of the right play into his thoughts about reform?
I feel like I just said the same thing 3 different ways, but I've always thought that the discussion had to include demands for change, whereas there were many who thought that appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.
“I guess what I’m trying to ascertain is did he consider reform before the right was knowledgeable enough about Islam to demand it? “
Personally, I don’t see the Right “demanding it”. And Dr. Jasser is a member of the Right himself.
Who cares how many yrs ago he started writing about reform? If he’s thought this way for 20 yrs, but didn’t write about it, are you then going to fault him for not having the time to write or being able to get the MSM to publish his writings? And what if he came to this conclusion a fews yrs ago? Who cares as long as he’s out there speaking about it now?
“I’ve always thought that the discussion had to include demands for change, whereas there were many who thought that appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.”
Dr Jasser has never been in favor of “appeasement through acceptance of whatever Muslims said to be true was the only necessary avenue.”
Maybe that’s your problem with him. You still don’t really understand or trust him, no matter how many times you say just the opposite. Because he is muslim.
This article includes his discovery of what was and is being taught in some of the mosques. He’s had numerous run-ins with CAIR types which have included threats, needless to say.
Does he think that radicals/fanatics within his religion are trying to influence the majority? Yes. That’s a fact. Is he trying to make a ‘call to arms’ to the majority with the intention that they realize that changes within their religion need to be made. Yes.
We need a lot more Dr Jasser’s. And we need a lot more people who aren’t muslims, supporting him.
What I don’t trust is those in our administration and state department who have shown naivete in choosing groups and individuals to work with.
When what we hear is that non-Muslims have to prove their good intentions to Muslims, that does not exactly create goodwill. I don’t think that is true and yes, I do believe it is the other way around. Is it really so difficult to understand why the majority of non-Muslim Americans do not want to hear call to prayer when that sound brings an immediate vision of the nightmare of 911? Is it so difficult to understand that when encouraged to learn about Islam, we did, and we now understand it to be contrary to Western values, specifically in the area of religious freedom where such freedom is an ambiguity in Islam? I did not undertake a study of Islam because of 911. My study began because I distrusted U.N.-enamored theosophists, many of whom are Sufis. It is a fact that the U.N. has anti-Christian anti-Western interests.
Mr. Jasser has his hands full certainly, but perhaps his most important contribution can be in the area of creating a new desire to assimilate. Organizations such as CAIR are doing exactly the opposite.
My religion is a way of life, too. But it does not require behaviors that are at odds with the melting pot that is America, a country formed on the basis of Judeo-Christian principles. Nor is at odds with our most precious documents. The Qur’an, however, does conflict with those documents. The Qur’an is a supremacist, separatist, bigoted work that lends itself too easily to the promotion of violent acts.
It is unbelievable and unacceptable to me that it is allowed to be used in its current form in this country (or anywhere) as an instructional guide for children without some sort of monitoring.
There is no single individual in all of history who has been the subject of as much scrutiny as Jesus, and his message rings so true, that whether one is a Christian or not, one cannot discount its goodness. I doubt that the life and legacy of Muhammad will be able to withstand that amount of scrutiny.
Recently, Mormonism has become an issue. Joseph Smith fancied himself to be the second coming of Muhammad. Perhaps that is one reason the LDS remains so secretive. I have very distant cousins who followed Smith. One was actually a polygamist who was appointed to the High Council by Smith himself. Smith’s story is similar to Muhammad’s. Thankfully, they remain a fairly small sect, although with those whose belief in polygamy kept them “underground,” we have seen criminal behavior by the likes of Warren Jeffs and others.
I also believe that groups such as the NAACP have outlived their original purpose and create division and separatism. La Raza does the same. So my concern does not just lie with religion, but with the growing political power of all such groups that are more engaged in promoting their own interests, rather than the interests of America.
“Is he trying to make a ‘call to arms’ to the majority with the intention that they realize that changes within their religion need to be made. Yes.”
I agree that is a good development.
“We need a lot more Dr Jasser’s. And we need a lot more people who aren’t muslims, supporting him.”
I do support him, however I will continue to remain skeptical until reform is deemed necessary by the majority of Muslims and until I can see positive results from such reform.
What you are unaware of is that I have actually encouraged many others to read Jasser, to visit his website, and that I’ve promoted his ideas as a first step in reform, but you are correct in your assessment of my distaste for Islam in general.
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