How and Why Romney Bombed

TCS ^ | 12/7/6/7 | Lee Harris

[ZGuy]

The Reuters headline said: "Mitt Romney Vows Mormon Church Will Not Run White House." Unfortunately, this time Reuters got its story right. In his long-awaited speech designed to win over conservative evangelicals, Romney actually did say something to this effect, making many people wonder why he needed to make such a vow in the first place. It's a bit like hearing Giuliani vow that the mafia will not be running his White House—it is always dangerous to say what should go without saying, because it makes people wonder why you felt the need to say it. Is the Mormon church itching to run the White House, and does Romney need to stand firm against them?

It is true that John Kennedy made a similar vow in his famous 1960 speech on religion, and Romney was clearly modeling his speech on Kennedy's. But the two situations are not the same. When John Kennedy vowed that the Vatican would not control his administration, he was trying to assuage the historical fear of the Roman Catholic Church that had been instilled into generations of Anglo-Saxon Protestants. Kennedy shrewdly didn't say that the Vatican wouldn't try to interfere—something that his Protestant target audience would never have believed in a millions years anyway; instead, Kennedy said in effect, "I won't let the Vatican interfere." And many Protestants believed him—in large part, because no one really thought Kennedy took his religion seriously enough to affect his behavior one way or the other.

The Mormon church is not Romney's problem; it is Romney's own personal religiosity. On the one hand, Romney is too religious for those who don't like religion in public life—a fact that alienates him from those who could care less about a candidate's religion, so long as the candidate doesn't much care about it himself. On the other hand, Romney offends precisely those Christian evangelicals who agree with him most on the importance of religion in our civic life, many of whom would be his natural supporters if only he was a "real" Christian like them, and not a Mormon instead.

To say that someone is not a real Christian sounds rather insulting, like saying that he is not a good person. But when conservative Christians make this point about Romney, they are talking theology, not morality. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the Mormon creed will understand at once why Romney felt little desire to debate its theological niceties with his target audience of Christian evangelicals, many of whom are inclined to see Mormonism not as a bona fide religion, but as a cult. In my state of Georgia, for example, there are Southern Baptist congregations that raise thousands of dollars to send missionaries to convert the Mormons to Christianity.

Yet if Romney was playing it safe by avoiding theology, he was treading on dangerous ground when he appealed to the American tradition of religious tolerance to make his case. Instead of trying to persuade the evangelicals that he was basically on their side, he did the worst thing he could do: he put them on the defensive. In his speech Romney came perilously close to suggesting: If you don't support me, you are violating the cherished principle of religious tolerance. But such a claim is simply untenable and, worse, highly offensive.

The Christian evangelicals who are troubled by Romney's candidacy do not pose a threat to the American principle of religious tolerance. On the contrary, they are prepared to tolerate Mormons in their society, just as they are prepared to tolerate atheists and Jews, Muslims and Hindus. No evangelical has said, "Romney should not be permitted to run for the Presidency because he is a Mormon." None has moved to have a constitutional amendment forbidding the election of a Mormon to the Presidency. That obviously would constitute religious intolerance, and Romney would have every right to wax indignant about it. But he has absolutely no grounds for raising the cry of religious intolerance simply because some evangelicals don't want to see a Mormon as President and are unwilling to support him. I have no trouble myself tolerating Satan-worshippers in America, but I would not be inclined to vote for one as President: Does that make me bigot? The question of who we prefer to lead us has nothing to do with the question of who we are willing to tolerate, and it did Romney no credit to conflate these two quite distinct questions. There is nothing wrong with evangelicals wishing to see one of their own in the White House, or with atheists wishing to see one of theirs in the same position.

Romney's best approach might have been to say nothing at all. Certainly that would have been preferable to trying to turn his candidacy into an issue of religious tolerance. Better still, he might have said frankly: "My religion is different and, yes, even a trifle odd. But it has not kept Mormons from dying for their country, or paying their taxes, or educating their kids, or making decent communities in which to live."

[Edward Watson]

False.

I do not believe Presbyterianism is the true religion. Only Mormonism.

Happy now?

Pst! Hey Elsie! I’ve got a nice shiny nickel here for you if you can say “Please” next time!

[Edward Watson]

What do you think, O brilliant one?

Since I’m a Mormon, which Scripture would I accept, the real one, namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, or a false one like ... your momma!

[MHGinTN]

So it’s turtles all the way down for you, eh?

[Elsie]

Still, if there really was a global flood (despite the lack of any physical evidence), there’s no way the ark would’ve stayed in the same region of the world, given global currents and wind patterns.

Where did the ark ORIGINATE?

We know it landed in the Near East, and the survivors named the region after places they knew.

Isn’t it then possible they could’ve originated in ancient America?

 

 

Bible Scholar time!

 

 Genesis 2:10-15
 10.  A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
 11.  The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold.
 12.  (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.)
 13.  The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.
 14.  The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. (We know approximately where this area is today.)

 

Genesis 5:1-32
 1.  This is the written account of Adam's line.   When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
 2.  He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. "
 3.  When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
 4.  After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
 5.  Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.
 6.  When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father  of Enosh.
 7.  And after he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters.
 8.  Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.
 9.  When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan.
 10.  And after he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters.
 11.  Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.
 12.  When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel.
 13.  And after he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters.
 14.  Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.
 15.  When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared.
 16.  And after he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters.
 17.  Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.
 18.  When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch.
 19.  And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
 20.  Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.
 21.  When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.
 22.  And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.
 23.  Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.
 24.  Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
 25.  When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech.
 26.  And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters.
 27.  Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.
 28.  When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son.
 29.  He named him Noah  and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed."
 30.  After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters.
 31.  Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.
 32.  After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

 

 

130 + 105 + 90 + 70 + 65 + 162 + 65 + 187 + 182 + 500 = 1556 years

 

So how far would 10 generations living 1556 years have traveled since Adam?  How much land would they need?  

 

It's not recorded; is it?

 

We could GUESS and THEORIZE and ASSUME, but, in reality, we'd have to say that, "We don't know."

 

 

 

 

...and the survivors named the region after places they knew.  <--- this is a GUESS, and THEORY and an ASSUMPTION.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sanjacjake]

It was a SUPER SPEECH...there ARE always these people who
eat crab-apples for desert...never a positive word
out of them...mainly Democrats...ignore them, and you
will enjoy your life, and our co-untry better..JK

[RobbyS]

I can tell that this guy wasn’t around in 1960. The speech did little to turn conservative Protestant opinion. If 80% of Catholic voters had not voted, in record numbers for Kennedy, he would not have won. The only ones he mollified were the coastal liberals, who were persuaded that he didn’t take his religion seriously. Three years later, conservative Protestants still hated him.

[Elsie]

The same group who are INCAPABLE of teaching “meat” doctrines since they simply do not know, understand, and have never been taught “deep doctrines.”

Obviously you did not LISTEN to what was said to these impressionable young minds who were told that...

...they "ALREADY know MORE about GOD, Christ and the Plan of Salvation that ANYONE you are going to talk with."

 

---

It appears that either YOU or the video dude is wrong in what he is saying.

Is it YOU; or HIM?

LDS Missionaries simply do not have the capability or the knowledge to provide a full answer.

[Elsie]

 

 I provide numerous scriptural passages from OFFICIAL MORMON DOCTRINE TEXTS

 

For ANYTHING to trump the existing bible we have, it HAS to pass THIS test:

 

 

Galatians 1:7-10
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert (restore?) the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”  

 

If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.

 

 

 

 

If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.

 

Be warned though, that this same Bible indicates that no matter how fervently you believe in Something; that does not make it True.

 

 

Since your  OFFICIAL MORMON DOCTRINE TEXTS have NOT been able to jump this hurdle; you'll have to use the BIBLE to make your point.

[SkyPilot]

Funny. I’m a Christian BECAUSE I’m a Mormon.

Being a Christian means following Christ - only.

Your church doesn't - and I can post link, after link of why that is true.

Here is just one:

Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19). Mormons have preferred to be called "saints"; however, in the recent years the LDS church has spent millions in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the church into the mainstream of Christianity.

My religion solves the most intractable problem facing theists today - How can an all good, all powerful, and all knowing God exist in the face of physical and moral evil?

The bible tells us this answer - not Joseph Smith or any of your "prophets."

Can your religion do likewise? Does it explain why the earthquake destroyed the orphanage? Does it explain why an all good, all powerful God with perfect knowledge of the future allowed Hitler to exist and do what he did? Does your religion explain why some babies experience horrible agony and pain from cancer, spina bifida, and other sources?

Yes. Evil exists because mankind is sinful. The world is fallen - but it will not always be so.

The brillaint Christian (not a Mormon) C.S. Lewis addressed this far better than you attempted to:

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too-for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist-in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless-I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality-namely my idea of justice-was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning.” -C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity

Here is a link to a friend of mine. He is originally from India, now he lives in Georgia. His name is Ravi Zacharias.

He spoke to your LDS church. He reached out to you, but I know now the LDS did not hear his words:

Ravi Zacharias in LDS Tabernacle

The LDS church only wanted to hear what they wanted to hear.

Of course not.

Presumptuous of you. Sorry - you are mistaken (see above).

Determinism and free will theodicies are incapable of resolving these problems which is why atheists have consistently defeated theist philosophers in debates

That is a 50 cent way of saying of there is evil in the world, and there will be until Christ returns.

Hey! Does your religion explain the origins of the universe in a manner that doesn’t violate common sense? Or can you only come up with the Unmoved Mover deity?

OK! Do you wish me to defend Christianity and the origin of the Universe in terms of 'common sense' for you? I will - but before I do that - you give me your side. You brought it up first.

[trisham]

You cannot possibly believe that an issue which has generated this much dissonance at this stage of the primaries is going to be left to die by the goon squad of the DNC!

*****************

The issue of religion is already a club the Democrats are using as a weapon against us. I doubt they will readily give it up.

[Elsie]

I notice that the ‘teacher’ calls the questioning folks ATTACKERS, so it’s no wonder that the pro-Mormon’s on these threads tend to do the same to the ‘questioners’ here.

[Elsie]

BTW, it has been my experience not one in a hundred Catholics can explain transubstantiation.

I've have many explain it to me, but none has been able to make me believe it from the Scriptures.

[Elsie]

If you cannot own what mormonism professes, I cannot have a discussion with you about the difference between that teaching and Christianity.

You wanna borrow some off my Jello® nails?

I've some left from the last batch I nailed the a tree.

[Elsie]

Keep your sense of humor, man.

Hello!

I'm  Mr. Ed!

[Elsie]

Stick to the Scriptures if you want official Mormon doctrines. Is that too much to ask?

 

Nope....

 

 

 

 

THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

 

  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 

Too bad that Joseph and Brigham and Pratt, ETAL ... paid no attention to THIS 'scripture'!

[Elsie]

 

After all, isn’t that how a true follower of Christ SHOULD act?

Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23

 

 1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
 2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
 4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
 5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
 6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
 7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
 8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
 9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

 

Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

 

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

 

[Elsie]

After all, isn’t that how a true follower of Christ SHOULD act?

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Elsie]

It’ll give you an accurate idea of Mormonism’s cosmology.

But... is it SCRIPTURE?

How could we trust YOU words?

[Elsie]

Where can you get the original scriptures of Noah or Enoch?

Yet another fine example of...

Answering the question that SHOULD have been asked."

[Elsie]

Also, I used to be nuts about chess but after lying in bed for three hours every night envisioning chess moves, I decided to quit and get on with my life.

Hot dog!

We agree on something! ;^)

As a late teen, I was in a Sunday School room with those sound deading tiles on the ceiling; the ones that about 30 rows and columns of holes.

The ones that just made LINES and caused visions of KNIGHTS to hop around CONTINUALLY if I looked at them!

(Didn't learn much!)