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To: weegee
Torture is the deliberate infliction of degrading and dehumanizing pain on unresisting men entirely within your physical power and under your protection. There is nothing ambiguous about it and everyone knows exactly what it is, especially those longing to engage in it. If you have to ask, the answer is "no".

No, you may not deliberately deprive of sleep or food or water etc, unresisting men entirely under your power for the purpose of coercing them to do your bidding. I really don't care what you can or can't extract from them, extraction is not my concern in the matter at all.

As for your silly Waco example, I wouldn't bring up notorious excesses of tyranny against fellow citizens - it is poor salesmenship and reminds people that the government cannot even be trusted to direct its attentions to people who deserve it or cases that actually matter for anything. But no, loudspeakers in that case were not the same as torturing people under one's full control, because it was not directed at men under control. It was a stupid and ineffective, childish and inane tactic, but it was tactics against still resisting men, not deliberate cruelty to those who had already surrendered.

Have we engaged in torture? By all press accounts, yes, in at least several high profile cases. Have we stopped doing so? I hope so. Do we occasionally wink at it being committed by allies, and connive at it, handing people over to torture? Probably. Which is a crime against humanity if it happens.

Also, what is this "we" bit? I point out that no possible claim on my loyalty can run in favor of a torturer, or of anyone who endorses or defends it.

The thing I have against terrorists is that they kill innocent people indiscriminately. Now, make all the people they kill no longer innocent, and the just objection to their conduct would disappear. That way lies sorrow. And indeed, such moral contagion is one of the first things to fear from terrorists.

As for killing enemies, no problem. Killing an actively resisting combatant is not torture of any kind. The objection to torture is not at all that it hurts, or any regard for the enemies that it hurts. It is, instead, a strong aversion to putting up with the fiends from the pit who perform it - and enjoy it thoroughly. Human experience has taught mankind that men who get that particular brainstorm and get at all used to it, exit the human race for a lower region, and do not return.

If death comes to any such, by any passing circumstance or accident, God himself would call it justice. So if our society and state wish to deserve allegiance from any actual human beings, as opposed to twisted damned things from the pits of hell, they should avoid the practice like a plague.

Is that clear enough for you, or do you want a diagram?

34 posted on 12/13/2007 1:00:53 AM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC

Quite clear. Food for thought.


38 posted on 12/13/2007 1:27:28 AM PST by endthematrix (He was shouting 'Allah!' but I didn't hear that. It just sounded like a lot of crap to me.)
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To: JasonC
not deliberate cruelty to those who had already surrendered.

I suggest you learn the difference between "surrender" and "capture".

L

40 posted on 12/13/2007 5:49:37 AM PST by Lurker ( Comparing moderate islam to extremist islam is like comparing smallpox to ebola.)
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To: JasonC
No, I think that's clear. Condescending, yes. Cowardly, yes.

But clear.

51 posted on 12/13/2007 3:16:16 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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