The Mother Of All Civilizations (Caral, Peru)

Times OF India ^ | 12-16-2007 | Shobhan Saxena

[knuthom]

Caral was born in trade and not bloodshed. Warfare came much later. This is what this mother city shows: great civilisations are born in peace. Ruth Shady continues to battle for this great truth.

This woman has an agenda. I wouldn't expect her to recognize the truth.

[blam]

"This woman has an agenda. I wouldn't expect her to recognize the truth. "

Showdown At OK Caral

[Publius6961]

No fair interjecting the Orient into the conversation.
It was like in a difference universe until the 14th century, and played no direct role in our (western) history until much later.

In the world of today, no such distinctions are any longer possible and in the context of and, for purposes of discussing the inate tendency of humans to fight, the orient is a valid point.
For some reason, most of us today still see the orient as an exotic, different world, and are ever conscious of the simple fact that, whatever peace was enjoyed in China and elsewhere, it was always in a highly stratified feudal society with iron-fisted monarchies of one kind or another. Even to this day.

[Sherman Logan]

We haven’t had a war with conflict on American soil. Which is the criteria used for the Pax Romana, which saw continuous border warfare.

[purpleraine]

I would say American territory and disputed territory would meet your criteria. What was the border dispute in new Mexico and California, that the border was too far north by hundreds of miles? LOL! Was fighting and rounding up Indian tribes a border dispute?

And your exception, the civil war was just brushed aside.

The point is your comment doesn't stand scrutiny.

[Sherman Logan]

Again with the exception of the WBTS, America has been internally much more peaceful for almost 200 years than the Roman Empire was during its famous Pax Romana, which was a good deal shorter in duration.

We take the accomplishments of America and Western Civilization so for granted that we tend to forget how unusual they are, historically speaking.

[purpleraine]

If you define it as internal peace, the US has had it since 1815 (or 192 years), with the notable exception of that little sectional disagreement in the 1860s.

[Sherman Logan]

the simple fact that, whatever peace was enjoyed in China and elsewhere, it was always in a highly stratified feudal society with iron-fisted monarchies of one kind or another.

Quite correct. Although Chinese society after the Han cannot be accurately referred to as feudal, and even under the Han the terms does't fit too well.

For that matter, iron-fisted monarchy and feudalism are in combo sort of an oxymoron. Feudalism means dispersed power, while monarchy means concentrated power.

However, your point is well taken that the East has never seen anything remotely resembling the freedom of Greek or Roman republics or of modern western republics or constitutional monarchies. That said, the absolute power of the monarchs was quite effectively limited in practice by somewhat more "informal" methods such as assassination, or just the practical difficulty of enforcing his will with inadequate communications.

No "absolute monarch" of the ancient world ever had anything remotely resembling the power over his people of a Stalin or Mao.

[Sherman Logan]

The comparison was with the Pax Romana, which meant peace within the Roman Empire. During much of the Pax Romana, expansionistic war was waged, and throughout it border warfare and skirmishing with barbarian tribes was continuous. Rebellions such as that of Boadicea were also quite common, although seldom very successful.

Applying those same criteria, America has been internally peaceful, with no foreign wars affecting American soil, or directly affecting American citizens, for almost 200 years.

True, we had a major civil war in the middle of this period, but then the Romans had one too. After Nero was murdered, they had three emperors placed on the throne by their troops in a single year, ending with Vespasian on the throne. To be sure, the American Civil War was doubtless a great deal more destructive than this relatively short Roman one. Although the Roman civil wars of the late Republic and of the empire after the Pax were of a scale equivalent in destructiveness to the American WBTS.

During the “Pax Americana,” the US conquered and incorporated the present American Southwest in a major war.

During the “Pax Romana” the Romans conquered and incorporated Morocco, Switzerland, much of Germany, Austria, Hungary, England, Wales, part of Scotland, Thrace, Illyria, Romania, Serbia, Iraq and Armenia, among other areas. With the last two being quickly abandoned as more trouble than they were worth, which modern Americans can sympathize with.

During the course of the Pax Romana, the Romans also converted a great deal of territory from rule by client kingdoms and allies to direct rule by the Emperor.

[purpleraine]

The year 69 was the year of four Emperors and AFTER the Pax Romana.

See my previous examples of two wars fought on all or partially on Amercian Territory.

Every war directly effected American citizens. I guess you didn't live on the coast during the early part of World War II.

I don't have time to correct the rest of your misconceptions.

[Coyoteman]

Good post. Thanks!

[Sherman Logan]

The year 69 was the year of four Emperors and AFTER the Pax Romana.

The Pax Roman is generally considered, per Gibbon and dozens (hundreds?) of other writers, to end in 180 AD with the accession of Commodus.

Its starting point is more contentious, with everything from the accession of Nerva (96) or Vespasian (69) to sometime in the reign of Augustus (usually 27 or 14 BC) put forward.

In any case, the year of the Four Emperors came either before the Pax Romana or in the middle of it, not following it.

I sincerely appreciate your forebearance in not pointing out the rest of my misconceptions.

[purpleraine]

You are correct I was wrong. However, I do believe it referred to peace on the borders and reduction in the desire to expand the empire. If you use that definition then the Spanish American War, Viet Nam, and even the Gulf, would fit in the scope of meaning of the your Pax Americana.

[SunkenCiv]

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[wildbill]

Wonderful pics.

Pic #2 shows me these citizens of Caral were the genesis of sports. It looks like the mother of all sports stadiums.

And we all know what happens in South American sports stadiums. The civilization probably failed because the fans of opposing teams killed each other off in riots.

[SunkenCiv]

LOL!

I figured it was probably a gunfight, OK? ;’)

[Fred Nerks]

America's oldest religious icon revealed

The image on the 4000-year-old gourd fragment (left) reveals the fanged teeth and splayed feet of the "staff god" when drawn (right) (Photo: Jonathan Haas, Drawing: Jill Seagard, The Field Museum)

First American civilisation sprang up fast

The first American civilisation sprang up rapidly on the central Peruvian coast more than 5000 years ago, new research has revealed. In less than 150 years, people went "from small hunter-gatherer bands to great big permanent communities with monumental architectures," says Jonathan Haas of the Field Museum in Chicago, US, whose group carbon-dated samples from 13 of more than 20 sites in the Norte Chico region. The ancient South American culture began building massive stone structures about the same time Egyptians built their first large step-pyramids. Yet their culture followed a different pattern.

A circle of upright stones marks the base of the main pyramid at Caballete in the Fortaleza Valley (Image: Proyecto Arqueologico Norte Chico)

Exploring the Americas' First Known Civilization. LINK. IMAGES.

[Fred Nerks]

forgot to ping ya...#57

[blam]

Thanks. From your photo link: Creamer and Haas (who are married) are not on good terms with Ruth Shady.

Field expert, wife accused of stealing scientist's work

[Fred Nerks]

hmmm...I know, just wanted to make sure that Creamer and Haas receive the credit they so obviously (IMO) deserve.