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To: from occupied ga
"Why do you consider this a separate matter? Clearly those who wrote the laws consider felons, people with mental defects and those with misdemeanor domestic violence all in the same pot. It's an infringement for all of those people."

The rights of felons are open to differential treatment by legislatures. Laws can be passed that specifically and negatively effect felons as a class, and not all citizens. That violates the concept of equal protection, but it's justified by the concept and principles of attainder. Attainder holds that when the felon commits a felony, they forfeit their rights and those rights are then subject to the good will of the legislature to ever recognize them. Attainder is what justifies disallowing felons to obtain certain licenses, or occupations, why they can't vote, and why they can't engage in the legitimate firearms market.

Folks that are dangeous due to mental defect aren't normal folks that can be described as rational actors. The people in law are considered to be rational actors. When any court has clear and convincing evidence that they are not, that they can't handle their own affairs, or that they are a danger to self, or others due to mental defect, the court essentially finds and declares they are not rational actors and modifiers their rights appropriately.

Misdemeanors are not subject to the common law concept of attainder. An individual's rights were never thought of as forfeit by the commission of a misdemeanor. Laughtenberg's crap was the first law, that I know of that attempted to equate misdemeanor, with felony and thus imply that loss of right applies to any infraction, however petty.

Re: The 2nd Amend.

"Funny , but I missed seeing the exceptions in the original. Maybe I have a bad copy I guess my copy missed out on the part right after the word people that says "except felons and those dangerous due to mental defect" I need to get a newer copy."

The disqualifiers that elaborate on those not included in the 2nd Amend, also include, enemies of the US and those that obtained dishonorable discharges from the Armed Forces of the US. You'll need to include those in with the poor oppressed psychotics and violent felons you're rooting for to have unfettered access to firearms, as members of the group known as the people.

78 posted on 12/21/2007 6:08:58 PM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets
That violates the concept of equal protection, but it's justified by the concept and principles of attainder. Attainder holds that when the felon commits a felony, they forfeit their rights and those rights are then subject to the good will of the legislature to ever recognize them.

I guess my copy of the constitution has stuff in it that yours doesn't. Mine has Section 9, Clause 3: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." I guess that the "living document" concept that you appear to support allows for such - along with McCain - Feingold violating the 1st amend. CHeer up even the supremes agree with you and disagree with me on this one. I appear to be in the minority opposed to those "law and order" types on this forum who think that the government can amend to constituion by passing unconstitutional laws. I believe that it means what it says.

The disqualifiers that elaborate on those not included in the 2nd Amend, also include, enemies of the US and those that obtained dishonorable discharges from the Armed Forces of the US.

In spite of your additional list of people who have no 2nd amendment rights, I still don't see them in my copy of the document. Funny, but I suspect that the framers of those documents didn't have a bunch of exceptions in mind when they wrote it. I guess they had the antequated notion that people who were out and about were entitled to the protections the same as the rest of us. GUess I'm just old fashioned

92 posted on 12/22/2007 6:42:09 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your most dangerous enemy is your own government, Benito Guilinni a short man in search of a balcony)
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To: spunkets
That violates the concept of equal protection, but it's justified by the concept and principles of attainder. Attainder holds that when the felon commits a felony, they forfeit their rights and those rights are then subject to the good will of the legislature to ever recognize them. Attainder is what justifies disallowing felons to obtain certain licenses, or occupations, why they can't vote, and why they can't engage in the legitimate firearms market.

Art. I, Section 9, Constitution for the United States of America
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Common law, English or Scottish, does not override the written Constitution.

113 posted on 12/22/2007 2:59:12 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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