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To: John O
I think perhaps you didn't read the article I linked, because it refutes the idea that God killed Onan only because of his disobedience, and without reference to his specific perverse act.

In a study of Genesis 38, "The Sin of Onan," Brian Harrison looked into the Jewish understanding of this passage. "The classical Jewish commentators - who can scarcely be accused of ignorance regarding Hebrew language, customs, law, and biblical literary genres - certainly saw in this passage of Scripture a condemnation of both unnatural intercourse and masturbation as such.

A typical traditional Jewish commentary puts it thus: "Onan misused the organs God gave him for propagating the race to unnaturally satisfy his own lust, and he was therefore deserving death."

Harrison is quoting The Encyclopedia Judaica (Vol.4,p.1054, article "Birth Control"), which also states: "Jewish tradition ascribed the practice of birth control to the depraved humanity before Noah (Gen. R. 23:2,4; Rashi to Gen. 4:19,23)."

The Encyclopedia article adds that on the basis of Gen. 38:9-10, "the Talmud sternly inveighs against 'bringing forth the seed in vain', considering it a cardinal sin (Nid. 13a). . . .Strictly Orthodox [Jews, . . . . for religious reasons, refuse to resort to birth control."

In the same Encyclopedia, under "Onanism" (Vol. 12, p.1495), it is stated that the act of Onan "is taken . . . by the Talmud (Yev. 34b) to refer either to unnatural intercourse or to masturbation. The Zohar [a traditional Jewish commentary] expands on the evil of onanism in the second sense."

Thus, not only do we have a united Christianity seeing Onan as being condemned for bringing forth seed in vain (whether as masturbation of birth control), but the historical Jewish outlook concurs with this view.

In 3500 years of Judaism+Christianity, nobody --- not Jews nor Protestants nor Catholics nor Orthodox--- ever condoned deliberately sterile forms of intercourse or said that it was OK in the marriage bed. And this, even though it would have been a handy thing to OK because it would be an always-available and low-tech form of contraception, wouldn't it?

Yet openly counseling anal intercourse as a way to limit childbirth, or approving it as a way to connect with your spouse, didn't occur to anybody, anywhere, ever, until maybe the late 20th century. Hmm.

At the same time that exactly the same acts were being mainstreamed by the gays and blessed by the successful sexual revolutionaries.

And you think it's OK by Biblical morality? Chapter and verse, please.

Good day to you.

117 posted on 01/29/2008 2:52:21 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Credo ut intelligam. -- Anselm)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I think perhaps you didn't read the article I linked, because it refutes the idea that God killed Onan only because of his disobedience, and without reference to his specific perverse act.

I read the bible. What more do I need? Lev 15:16-18 clearly does not consider spilling of seed to be sinful. So what did Onan do that was sinful? He disobeyed.

A typical traditional Jewish commentary puts it thus: "Onan misused the organs God gave him for propagating the race to unnaturally satisfy his own lust, and he was therefore deserving death."

Even if he had obeyed he would have just been satisying his own lust. Surely you don't think he loved Tamar do you? Any coupling resulting in orgasm would only have been from lust, not from love. So whether he impregnated her or not he would have satisfied his lust. How can it be not sinful to finish inside her but sinful to finish outside her when it's the same lust? The only thing he did sinful was disobey.

The Encyclopedia article adds that on the basis of Gen. 38:9-10, "the Talmud sternly inveighs against 'bringing forth the seed in vain',

That's all well and good but there is no explicit condemnation of it in the Bible. Talmud is only history and commentary. It is not the word of God.

In the same Encyclopedia, . . . by the Talmud (Yev. 34b) .... The Zohar [a traditional Jewish commentary]

Again, extra-biblical. Show me in the bible.

Thus, not only do we have a united Christianity seeing Onan as being condemned for bringing forth seed in vain (whether as masturbation of birth control),

Since I'm Christian and presumably you're Christian then this statement is in fact false. The vast majority of Christian people I know agree with my stance. But then you probably move within a Catholic community while I move in Protestant communities. And you think it's OK by Biblical morality? Chapter and verse, please.

My point remains that Onan was not punished for spilling his seed. He was punished for disobedience. Any discussion of normal or perverse sexual practices has no bearing on that point. (Let me add that the act of spilling the seed is not condemned as sinful in the Bible. However lustful thoughts that may or may not accompany that act remain sinful)

118 posted on 01/30/2008 5:34:27 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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