Amish Community Fined Over Outhouse Controversy

www.wjactv.com ^ | February 14, 2008 | Channel 6 News and WJACTV.com

[ThinkingBuddha]

BARR TOWNSHIP, Pa. -- Controversy over a manmade outhouse could end up with members of an Amish community in jail.

Neighbors of the Cambria County Amish community complained about the bathroom facilities the Amish are using because they take waste from their outhouse and dump it onto their property.

The property is in the same area near underground wells for nearby residents.

The complaints made to the Cambria County Sewage Enforcement Agency were investigated and citations were filed against the Amish property owners.

The owners said they refuse to pay any fines, because it is against their religious beliefs, and will go to jail if necessary.

Deborah Sedlmeyer, of the Cambria County Sewage Enforcement Agency, said the law doesn't allow residents to discharge sewage onto their property and outhouses must have an approved containing device. The Amish community in question has neither, and nearby residents said that's what concerns them.

"Some of them have had concerns about water quality. There are some on-site wells, so obviously there's an issue. The sewage is often times discharged (and) placed onto the ground, so there are some water quality issues."

The Amish families in Barr Township said they are aware they are facing a list of charges, but said they would not compromise their beliefs because of it.

"If they don't comply, they will be fined. They don't believe in the payment of fines, so they've already attested that they will go to jail in lieu of paying fines," Sedlmeyer said.

The Amish families live a very simple lifestyle with no electricity or cars and said it is against their religion to make the upgrades. They also said they don't mean to bother anyone in the area and are just trying to live the way their forefathers did.

"We certainly respect them for their religious beliefs, but as Pennsylvania residents, they are required to follow state law," Sedlmeyer said.

[pnh102]

Wow! This time it really is the Amish!

[lexington minuteman 1775]

A possible solution would be some local sewage company could pump out the outhouses...so the Amish don’t break their religious beliefs?
Otherwise this goes from the crapper to the slammer for Yoder...

[cripplecreek]

Cambria County Sewage Enforcement Agency

I'm guessing this "agency" came into being about the same time people were likely forced to accept a community sewage system.

Every time I read something like this I thank God that my neighbors have been wise enough to vote against sewer, gas, and water lines.

[Lurker]

Well that's a crappy thing to do.

L

[The Electrician]

Controversy over a manmade outhouse...

(scratching his head) What other kind is there?

[blu]

How long have the Amish and the outhouses been there? How long have the complainers been there? I’d bet the Amish have been there longer, and so have “sqatter’s” rights!

[gridlock]

People have been doing this for milleia. There are common sense methods to prevent groundwater contamination. This lawsuit just reflects the squimishness of people who are not used to dealing with reality.

Dumping spoils from an outhouse on the ground does not necessarily lead to groundwater or surface water contamination, if it is done properly. Presumably the Amish know what they are doing.

[2banana]

Crazy Amish at it again - what next?

[Iron Munro]

"Controversy over a manmade outhouse"

They should ask this news-writer to recommend a source for a non-manmade outhouse.

There must be gigantic factories somewhere in China with clunky machines churning out plastic outhouses by the millions.

.

[JimRed]

Neighbors of the Cambria County Amish community complained about the bathroom facilities the Amish are using because they take waste from their outhouse and dump it onto their property.

Do the nearby homes have public sewers? More likely septic systems. Darn little difference in the net effect on the water supply (little to none). Properly dried and plowed in, the manure should be no more offensive than any other fertilizer.

[Mr. Lucky]

The problem here is not the Amish, but the yuppies who move into Amish communites to be one with nature and then try to recast the neighborhood into an upscale urban mold.

[Fiddlstix]

Controversy over a manmade outhouse...

(scratching his head) What other kind is there?

ROTFL!!!!
(You owe me a new keyboard & monitor now!)
LOL!

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Barr Township will do well to avoid a fight with the Amish, who have the financial and political clout to spank its bureaucrats. If the Amish can STOP and major road construction project, then they can overturn a law against outhouses.

[PGR88]

Crimes against environmental laws?? Good Lord - these guys are going to have SWAT teams on them soon.

[chrisser]

We have Amish here in Ohio as well in several counties not too far from Cleveland. Nice people. Bit quirky, but once upon a time in this country, you had the right to be quirky and still be left alone.

Amish don't use electricity or mechanical power - just horses and other animals. My guess is that the average Amish farm generates several times more animal waste than human, and there certainly isn't any sort of sewage system for that.

Now that said, since septic systems (at least the anaerobic ones) don't require any mechanics, it would seem that the Amish could be convinced to put in slightly more effective systems for human waste treatment without compromising their beliefs. People who work the land tend to have more respect for it. I suspect there is some justification in wanting to keep human waste out of the runoff water, but those who are advocating it likely chose the blunt instrument of government coersion over the more effective and efficient instruments of education and cooperation.

Septic systems aren't all that complicated or difficult to install and most of the expense seems to be in the excavation - something that the Amish likely could do cheaply with their community traditions (think barn-raising). I'd bet there's a viable solution that every reasonable person in the county could live with that doesn't involve fining people for doing what they've been doing for generations.

[Red_Devil 232]

Is the dumping of the human waste a part of their belief or is this all because their belief in not paying fines? I guess I am wondering if their belief system says this is the way to dispose of the outhouse waste? If not why don't they just burn the waste.

That is the way it was done in the Marine Corps. 55 gal. drums were cut in half and placed under the outhouses. There were access doors to the drums in the back and they were pulled out and a little kerosene added and burned. This was a detail you did not want to be on. Usually you were serving out some form of discipline if you found yourself on the S**t Detail! LOL

[cripplecreek]

The problem here is not the Amish, but the yuppies who move into Amish communities to be one with nature and then try to recast the neighborhood into an upscale urban mold.

The same thing Ann Arbor liberals are trying to do here. They see our little town and think it would be a nice "bedroom" community if only we would toss off our backward attitudes and accept the better ways of modern liberal cities.

Its the same thing every year. A new resident shows up at a township meeting and starts demanding a new taxpayer funded community service. Now they want to get rid of our post office and have a neighboring community take over house to house mail delivery. When the elderly pointed out that they gather to gossip and talk at the PO, the liberals decide that a taxpayer funded community center would be better.

This morning I found our elderly postmistress standing in the doorway holding the new and approved safety door open, she explained that she couldn't open the heavy thing if it closed behind her.

[Graycliff]

That is the way it was done in the Marine Corps. 55 gal. drums were cut in half and placed under the outhouses. There were access doors to the drums in the back and they were pulled out and a little kerosene added and burned. This was a detail you did not want to be on. Usually you were serving out some form of discipline if you found yourself on the S**t Detail! LOL

---

38 years ago and i still remember the smell. The smell around FOB Bastogne was bad enough with out it.

[WayneM]

"We certainly respect them for their religious beliefs, but as Pennsylvania residents, they are required to follow state law," Sedlmeyer said.

If only they were illegal aliens, they would be allowed to ignore all sorts of laws - laws pertaining to registration and immunization of school children, workplace regulations, taxation rules, motor vehicle, driver license and insurance laws, etc.

Maybe they should voluntarily give up their citizenship and see if they could qualifiy for some of the special privileges given to illegals.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

“Crazy Amish at it again - what next?”

They might even get cell phones!

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

“Crazy Amish at it again - what next?”

They might even get cell phones!

[colorado tanker]

Oh s@#t.

[DannyTN]

What exactly is against their religious belief? Dumping their sewage on other people’s property? Or are they being told to install an electric toilet?

This doesn’t sound like a representative Amish person to me.

[stompk]

I wonder what these people think the Animals in the area are doing? Is human waste more toxic to ground water than pigs, cows and sheep ?

[BillT]

Were the Amish there first?

[Wiser now]

LOL Some of them already have them, teenage girls in particular. At least they do here in Ohio.

[stompk]

thinking of a hot topic on here recently,
maybe the Amish could “go” in plastic bags and sent them to the dump. then there would be an outcry about plastic bags, and then they would be required to use an outhouse.

:-)

[ThinkingBuddha]

How long have the Amish and the outhouses been there? How long have the complainers been there? I’d bet the Amish have been there longer, and so have “sqatter’s” rights!

When I lived in Pennsylvania, our home used to be next to an Amish farm! Amish use horse and Cow manure to fertilize their fields. So we would get some really strong smell from their fields.

A couple of my neighbors filled a complaint against the Amish. The problem here is that their homes were built in 2001, next to a farm that was built before the USA even declared independence!

I have long since moved from PA, but I don't to know what hapened to that petition/complaint!!

[ThinkingBuddha]

What exactly is against their religious belief? Dumping their sewage on other people’s property? Or are they being told to install an electric toilet? This doesn’t sound like a representative Amish person to me.

They dump their sewage on THEIR property; as they have been doing for a few hundred years. It is the hippies who moved next door (to be closer to nature, I guess), who have a problem with this "organic" lifestyle.

Well, the hippies are taking control of the country (just ask Pelosi,Boxer etc... only they have a right to determine what is organic, what is a natural and and acceptable lifestyle /sarcasm

[annelizly]

actually yes. human waste isn’t used as fertilizer because, i’v always been told, it contaminates.

[NVDave]

I had exactly the same question. In central Nevada, there’s still all sorts of outhouses, some still in use on remote ranches.

Never saw one of them that just up and grew from the surrounding sagebrush.

ps — the WPA-made outhouses from the 1930’s were vastly over-engineered and are still around. Quite the bit of construction - most of them were two or four holers.

[purpleraine]

I KNEW it! And they probably have a crescent on the outhouse door. Where’s homeland security on this?

[wequalswinner]

I agree with you there, they probably aren’t contaminating anything. Just like the lagoons some folks in the country flush their waste into. Nature cleanses, it’s dealt with by the ecosystem. Flush toilets are a pretty recent invention.
Google: Thomas Crapper

[muawiyah]

It's been an uphill battle to get the Amish to put an outhouse over the slit-trench.

They could easily revert.

[chuckles]

....."told to install an electric toilet?"......

I was thinking that there might be more to this also. In Texas, we have been under attack for about a decade now. There is almost no land that I know of that you can buy here now that will pass the "perc" test. People pay much extra for a "grandfathered" septic system. All raw lands with no septic must have the new aerobic systems. It seems the perc tests always fail, the inspector is always the brother in law of the guy that inspects the aerobic systems every year for $300, and the installer is somebodies cousin. If you try to fight it, they always start to accuse you of fouling the groundwater. If you have 20 acres and your well is 400 ft from the septic, that just doesn't seem good enough. Used to be the well would be just a few yards from the septic and that was ok for 200 years, now they start talking of fouling water tables miles away.

It's about money and control, not pollution.

[Tallguy]

I used to live in the northern part of Lancaster County. You got used to the smell of manure & only really noticed it when it was freshly spread (like during the late winter/early spring when they were getting ready to turn the soil. The thing that I really never got used to were the flies.

[Tallguy]

Now that said, since septic systems (at least the anaerobic ones) don't require any mechanics, it would seem that the Amish could be convinced to put in slightly more effective systems for human waste treatment without compromising their beliefs. People who work the land tend to have more respect for it. I suspect there is some justification in wanting to keep human waste out of the runoff water, but those who are advocating it likely chose the blunt instrument of government coersion over the more effective and efficient instruments of education and cooperation.

If the community forces the issue the Amish will 'adjust'. They always do.

They do refrigerate their raw milk on-site until the dairy truck pumps them out. They use diesel generators to create their own electricity for this. So you see the prohibition is not "no electricity", but has become "no utilities". Al Gore would love this.

Another 'adjustment' is the orange triangles & flashers on the backs of their black buggies. Lead Acid batteries on a horse-drawn buggie? Where are they recharging those? Those clandestine diesel generators I expect.

[Tallguy]

Yeah, the firm from which our sewage enforcement officer comes is only prohibited from doing business within the township. ‘Course he has a nice little ping-pong game going on with the neighboring township enforcement officer, and so on...

[lmailbvmbipfwedu]

A guy I worked with some years ago bought a small farm. After a about a month he stopped showing up for work. When I saw him I ask why. As it turns out the farm he bought needed a new well drilled. The site of the new well just happened to be the site of an outhouse that had been removed and been covered over. The new well was drilled through the pit. He and his whole family came close to dying from the pollution.

[grellis]

Asking for the Amish to use suitable containment for their waste and forcing them to accept a community sewage system is a stretch.

[dljordan]

“(scratching his head) What other kind is there?”

Perhaps there are “natural” outhouses in the wild that we don’t know about. I’m sure they’re endangered.

[lexington minuteman 1775]

I think humann waste is considered more toxic. Because animal fertilizers have been used for eons, but human waste is “treated”... they probably disperse it in DC after treatment because many member of Congress are full of it...

[VanShuyten]

It has to be heavily composted to become safe. Otherwise there’s a real chance of passing on bacteria and parasitic worms to people who eat food grown on that land. Asians use night soil, but only after a “taster” says it has composted enough.

[ontap]

All the anaerobic systems I’m familiar with require an air compressor and a pump.

[chrisser]

All the anaerobic systems I’m familiar with require an air compressor and a pump.

I thought those were the aerobic systems.

[ontap]

I will consider my hand slapped.LOL!

[Marysecretary]

There ARE plastic outhouses. They’re all over the place where there are large crowds.

[Marysecretary]

Farmers have always done that. With liquid manure the smell is really bad, but hey, don’t move next to a farm if you don’t want to smell the ‘country coffee.’

[Tallguy]

agreed.