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Citizen Mccain's Panama Problem
Daily Paul ^ | February 10th, 2008 | Praetorius

Posted on 02/16/2008 8:19:47 PM PST by Tai_Chung

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To: puroresu

“Actually it’s a common misunderstanding that the zone was a U.S. territory - in fact, the U.S. had lease rights, but not territorial rights.”

Found this on redstate, was curious if you have something that says it was a US territory? Thanks


41 posted on 02/16/2008 9:56:46 PM PST by icwhatudo
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To: LibertarianInExile
Art. III. The Republic of Panama grants to the United States all the rights, power and authority within the zone mentioned and described in Article II of this agreement and within the limits of all auxiliary lands and waters mentioned and described in said Article II which the United States would possess and exercise if it were the sovereign of the territory within which said lands and waters are located to the entire exclusion of the exercise by the Republic of Panama of any such sovereign rights, power or authority...

Looks pretty clear, the zone was NOT U.S. territory.

42 posted on 02/16/2008 10:00:32 PM PST by icwhatudo
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To: ASA Vet
Title 8 of the U.S. Code Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

That isn't law. It is someone assembling a guide book based on his own feelings. If the feelings of a guide book assembler trump the Constitution and legislation, the guide book drawers would be the final arbiter of everything.

Surely you'd agree that someone can't be a natural born citizen of two nations. Which nation is an anchor baby a natural born citizen of if both parents are Mexican?

Natural born means born on US soil. McCain is no more a natural born citizen of the US than the many Panamanians who were born at the hospital he was born at.

43 posted on 02/16/2008 10:04:19 PM PST by Perchant
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To: LibertarianInExile

and if SCOTUS declares the POTUS candidate ineligible, the VPOTUS candidates gets the prize!
So maybe we should hope it to be true!

This is worse then grasping at straws!
McCain is the nominee for better or worse, so much choice will be worse & much much worse. I choose worse!


44 posted on 02/16/2008 10:07:15 PM PST by Reily
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To: B Knotts

Hmmmmm ..?? This is an interesting twist. I do believe an American military base on foreign soil becomes American soil - therefore making McCain a “natural born” citizen.

Even if I don’t like the guy .. this is a “going nowhere” story.


45 posted on 02/16/2008 10:08:24 PM PST by CyberAnt (AMERICA: The greatest nation on the face of the earth.)
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To: Tai_Chung

Would the problem go up in smoke for the Paulies if he said he’d legalize pot?


46 posted on 02/16/2008 10:10:41 PM PST by NoLibZone (If the Clinton years were so great, why is Osama doing so well?)
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To: Tai_Chung
This is interesting to me because we had always told our kids that only #4 born, the only one born on US soil, could run for president. Even though the 3 older children were all citizens of the United States at birth through their mom and were issued “Certificate of Birth of United States Citizen Born Abroad” birth certificates by the US emabassy shortly after birth.

The way I understand it is as follows: First there is no question about John McCains citizenship; he is and was a citizen of the United States at birth by “blood” because his parents were US Citizens. What he is not is a Citizen by “soil” because he was not born on US soil. Being a citizen by “soil” is the only form of citizenship that can not be regulated by congress, it is unquestionable and irrevocable. All other citizenship “classes” can be and are regulated by congress, including the citizenship rights of children to US military personnel born on foreign soil. For example one limitation congress has put on Citizens that have their citizenship by their bloodline is: If a US Citizen by blood does not become a United States resident throughout their life time and does not remain a resident for at least 5 years(i.e. grows up and remains abroad), his or her Children again (grand children of the US citizen by soil) does not become United States Citizens if they also are born abroad. Children born to US citizen on foreign soil may also have citizenship rights in the country where they were born, however, that is typically not the case when the parents were there in a diplomatic capacity or as part of a military occupation and not all countries recognize citizenship by soil like the US does anyways but have citizenship laws based fully on citizenship by blood.

While the exact meaning of the requirement for becoming president; “a natural born citizen”, has never been tried in a court of law - the issue of Citizenship by birth on US soil versus Citizenship by blood line and congress’ right to regulate only the latter, was and has since been well settled law tried all the way to the supreme court.

47 posted on 02/16/2008 10:26:02 PM PST by okvalvaag (Abortion - it stops a beating heart!)
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To: abenaki

I don’t think he is logged on right now; may I be of service?


48 posted on 02/16/2008 10:30:56 PM PST by Controlling Legal Authority
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To: Tai_Chung

He was born on a US military base in a US territory. The author may have wanted to do a little research. Plus did they actually believe McCain could have been on Presidential ballots if he was not eligible?


49 posted on 02/16/2008 10:34:32 PM PST by John Robie
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To: Tai_Chung

My husband’s brother in law was born in Cuba, just a year two after McCain. His father worked for the state dept, his mother was a friend of John Kerry’s mother, both from Groton. My husband’s brother in law is not legally a citizen because his parents never filed the proper paper work. He didn’t have to serve in Vietnam because he was not legally a citizen, but he has voted in every election.


50 posted on 02/16/2008 10:38:07 PM PST by Eva (Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.)
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To: Tai_Chung
The Paulies should be pressing Ron Paul to offer up an amendment to make children born to US citizens abroad “natural born citizens”. Then if someone challenges the need for the amendment, it will quickly reach SCOTUS for a look.

If it is amended into the Constitution that a child born to two nationals is a citizen of the parents’ nation, the anchor babies can be considered citizens of the parents’ home nation as well. This is the perfect opportunity to fix the anchor baby problem by making the baby a citizen of the country the mother came from instead of a citizen of the country where it was born. We can legitimize McCain’s presidential run at the same time we solve the anchor baby problem. Let’s get it done for the sake of finally getting something important accomplished for once.

51 posted on 02/16/2008 11:11:54 PM PST by Perchant
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To: Tai_Chung
His father was active duty military. Both parents were US citizens and he was born on a navy base which would be considered US property. Panama at that time was American territory.

Many babies have been born outside the country on military bases. They are citizens.

52 posted on 02/16/2008 11:16:33 PM PST by Texas Mom (Two places you're always welcome. Church and Grandma's house.)
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To: icwhatudo
You’re correct that it’s an interesting issue. This isn’t on-line, but it’s from my old 1967 World Book Encyclopedia which I've had since I was in elementary school!:

“The United States and Panama signed an agreement in 1903 establishing the Canal Zone. The pact gave the United States the right to build and operate the Panama Canal and to govern the Zone. The United States pays Panama $1,930,000 a year for the use of the Zone.”

Further down, it says:

“The Canal Zone government is an independent agency of the United States government. It administers the civil government of the Canal Zone. The President of the United States appoints the governor of the Canal Zone for a four-year term. In time of war, the highest ranking United States Army officer in the Canal Zone takes charge of the Zone and the Canal.”

It goes on to describe how the U.S. government operates the Zone’s police & fire departments, its hospitals, sanitation facilities, and schools. This would all tend to support the view that it was some type of U.S. territory. However, it may not have been a U.S. territory in the same sense as Puerto Rico or Guam, because it was never given a non-voting representative in Congress. It was perhaps more of a leased territory since we paid Panama an annual fee (rent) for it.

53 posted on 02/17/2008 12:34:53 AM PST by puroresu (Enjoy ASIAN CINEMA? See my Freeper page for recommendations (updated!).)
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To: Perchant

The United States Code is the codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States. It is divided by broad subjects into 50 titles and published by the Office of the Law Revision Counsel of the U.S. House of Representatives.


54 posted on 02/17/2008 1:36:30 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: CyberAnt

Yes, that’s probably right. Still, this is something that has never been tested, because none of the candidates in similar circumstances have won a presidential election.


55 posted on 02/17/2008 6:41:33 AM PST by B Knotts (Newt^H^H^H^HTancredo^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HFred^H^H^H^HRomney^H^H^H^H^H^HRon Paul '08)
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To: oldbill

you are right, Carter gave that away.


56 posted on 02/17/2008 6:43:08 AM PST by television is just wrong
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To: All; Tai_Chung; LibertarianInExile

I have hesitated to jump into this because of the lack of knowledge by some concerning my birthplace and home, the Canal Zone.

Tai_Chung and LibertarianInExile understand the facts because they took the trouble to do the research.

If some do not understand the treaty by reading it as simple as it was written, sadly there is no help or hope for you.

John McCain’s father was stationed in Quarry Heights and the present nut was born in Gorgas Hospital, Ancon, which belonged to the Canal Zone and not to the military.

If McCain becomes the presidential nomination for the Republican party, this will be going to the Supreme Court. I can see the Democrats pushing this, and it sould be.

Thank you, Tai_Chung, for your research and caring.

Thank you, LibertarianInExile, for sharing the Panama Canal Treaty of 1903.

Good work by both of you.

Regards and love from a Canal Zonian.


57 posted on 02/17/2008 7:04:09 AM PST by GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: Army Air Corps

Yes, I believe that was the case. My Dad spent most of his life on active military duty and, although none of his children were born outside the U.S., it’s petty, vile and smarmy for it to be suggested that we would not be eligible for the presidency if we had been. I have plenty to argue against McCain with, but some small-minded sophomoric display of personal ignorance is way beneath dignity.


58 posted on 02/17/2008 7:20:22 AM PST by Emmett McCarthy
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To: Cringing Negativism Network; Tai_Chung
So what please are you hoping to accomplish at this point, by complaining about the Republican nominee?
If the issue is raised now and its possible the dims could raise it as a post convention campaign issue then raising it now could give the delegates to our convention an opportunity to select an "unimpeachable" candidate: Thompson, Hunter, Gingrich, Santorum, etc.? ;-) 你說不說???? ;-)
59 posted on 02/17/2008 7:35:01 AM PST by Tunehead54 (Nothing funny here. ;-)
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To: Perchant
The Paulies should be pressing Ron Paul to offer up an amendment to make children born to US citizens abroad “natural born citizens”. Then if someone challenges the need for the amendment, it will quickly reach SCOTUS for a look.

If it is amended into the Constitution that a child born to two nationals is a citizen of the parents’ nation, the anchor babies can be considered citizens of the parents’ home nation as well. This is the perfect opportunity to fix the anchor baby problem by making the baby a citizen of the country the mother came from instead of a citizen of the country where it was born. We can legitimize McCain’s presidential run at the same time we solve the anchor baby problem. Let’s get it done for the sake of finally getting something important accomplished for once.

Excellent idea! What some are missing in this disagreement is that McCain is of course an American Citizen via derived or acquired citizenship from his parents, which does not answer whether he meets the other definition of natural born citizen. The law is unlcear on that issue. Additionally was he a C section? /sarcasm.

60 posted on 02/17/2008 7:39:50 AM PST by rolling_stone (same)
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