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To: Ancesthntr
"... If we win in Heller on the individual rights issue and on the unconstitutionality of bans on whole classes of firearms (and I believe we will, given Kennedy's performance), then a plaintiff who has applied for a tax stamp to purchase a post-5/19/1986 full auto (preferably an M16, for reasons I'll state below) can bring a case in the DC District Court (because that's where the BATFE "lives")."

I don't know if this means anything, but maybe the DC Circuit Court isn't where a case like you propose would end up. The BATFE has been moving around. They're now in Chicago, Atlanta, and West Virginia. Form 1s go to Chicago. Form 4s go to Georgia. Forms are processed in West Virginia after the checks cash.

"... So, here you'll have Mr. Squeaky Clean, who the feds think is fine and dandy to own a pre-ban, but the same guy can't own a virtually identical gun made in the same factory only 2 days later. This defies ANY strict scrutiny argument and, in fact, defies ANY rational reasoning."

I like the cut of your jib, sirrah, but I'm also wondering if Kennedy's statement “Miller may be deficient” isn't more ominous than welcoming. He plainly noted a potential for a decoupling of the 'militia' phrase from 'the people' phrase and asked if there were two rights there or just one. He might have it in mind that Miller didn't have recourse to a defense under the Second Amendment because he wasn't in 'the militia', never mind how short or long his shotgun was.

This could end up as a split decision: The people have rights to civilian weapons, the 'militia' has rights to militia weapons like your post-'86 M16.

Anyway, you may be perfectly correct, but I don't think anyone is sure what Kennedy thinks about Miller and what he meant by what he said.

60 posted on 03/21/2008 1:11:38 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid
I don't know if this means anything, but maybe the DC Circuit Court isn't where a case like you propose would end up. The BATFE has been moving around.

I don't think that the processing sites mean anything. Uncle lives in DC, and thus all agencies do as well. Besides, it is my understanding that every case involving the US government gets heard in the DC circuit.

...but I'm also wondering if Kennedy's statement “Miller may be deficient” isn't more ominous than welcoming. He plainly noted a potential for a decoupling of the 'militia' phrase from 'the people' phrase and asked if there were two rights there or just one. He might have it in mind that Miller didn't have recourse to a defense under the Second Amendment because he wasn't in 'the militia', never mind how short or long his shotgun was.

This could end up as a split decision: The people have rights to civilian weapons, the 'militia' has rights to militia weapons like your post-'86 M16.

I agree with some of your questions about Kennedy's motives/thoughts. However, the militia of the Revolutionary War and as it existed after the passage of the 1792 Militia Act had weapons that were the equal of those of the armed forces. In fact, the militia was conceived of as the true armed might of the nation, and the hope among most of the framers was that we'd have a small professional army (one not capable of taking over or significantly influencing the government or even any state) as a core used to train a mass militia (one that provided its own weapons, by the way) in the event of invasion or insurrection. That's what happened in 1812, 1848 and the Civil War. One could also say that it happened in 1898 vs. Spain (TR's Rough Riders largely trained and outfitted itself, with vets of the small professional army brought on to train the volunteers). In WW1 and subsequently, soldiers generally didn't bring their own weapons into battle or training (with, of course, a few exceptions).

I don't know how you can uncouple the militia from the people, not looking at the historical record and the writings of the Founders. Here's a pertinent example:

I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials. George Mason

This is, I believe, the basis for the Miller Court not even examining whether Miller was part of the militia - because it didn't occur to them to do so, because the answer was so obvious. Kind of like a finding that the cloudless daytime sky is some shade of blue.

Also consider that full autos have NEVER been banned under federal law, and that there are currently some 160,000 full autos in civilian hands without a daily (or even yearly) massacre. I don't think that the Court can ratify the principle that the military is supposed to have a permanent legal advantage over the people from which it is drawn, and against whom a potential tyrant would use it. Besides, the 2nd Amendment says "ARMS" - which is plainly, in view of the Letters of Marque and Reprisal clause and our history, not limited to hand-held firearms.

69 posted on 03/21/2008 1:47:31 PM PDT by Ancesthntr (An ex-citizen of the Frederation trying to stop Monica's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife from becoming President)
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