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Same crack sniper rifle killed SEVEN British soldiers in Basra with American-made bullets
Daily Mail ^ | 9th April 2008 | Staffer

Posted on 04/09/2008 8:03:38 PM PDT by PotatoHeadMick

Seven British soldiers were shot in Basra last year by the same sniper rifle, the Ministry of Defence has revealed.

The troops were picked off one by one on the streets of the southern Iraqi city by a weapon firing high-velocity American-made bullets.

Rifleman Aaron Lincoln, 18, Kingsman Danny Wilson, 28, Kingsman Alan Jones, 20, Corporal Rodney Wilson, 30, Rifleman Paul Donnachie, 18, and two others who have not yet been named, were all killed by bullets from the same weapon, said a spokesman for the MoD.

But he could not verify that a single gunman was responsible.

Rifleman Lincoln, of the 2nd Battalion, The Rifles, was killed on April 2 last year by a single bullet that penetrated his protective glasses and helmet, an inquest in Spennymoor, County Durham, heard yesterday.

Of the five soldiers that have been identified, four were shot in April. Corporal Wilson was killed on June 7.

Ballistics expert Ann Kiernan told the inquest: "There had been several incidents where projectiles have all been discharged from the same rifle."

The bullets were made by arms manufacturer Lake City Arsenal and the hearing was told the military cannot yet provide helmets strong enough to withstand such powerful ammunition.

Rifleman Lincoln's platoon had been sent on to the city streets as part of an operation to divert enemy attention from a re-supply convoy of 30 trucks due at the British camp.

Coroner Andrew Tweddle said he was concerned the bullet had penetrated the soldier's helmet, but noted evidence given that the Army were unable to "provide a higher level of protection".

He recorded a narrative verdict of unlawful killing, adding that Rifleman Lincoln was shot by enemy fire. "He sustained a single gun shot wound to the head,' he said. 'This 5.56mm, U.S. manufactured round was not fired by friendly forces.'


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: ammo; basra; fallen; iraq; snipers; uktroops
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Wouldn't you love to know how they got their hands on US made ammunition.
1 posted on 04/09/2008 8:03:39 PM PDT by PotatoHeadMick
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To: PotatoHeadMick

It’s not hard to do. We’ve left or sold literally kilotons of the stuff all over the world in the last 40 years.


2 posted on 04/09/2008 8:06:08 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

Also, someone’s got some problems, because the current helmet is proof against 5.56 NATO.


3 posted on 04/09/2008 8:06:48 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

I don’t get it; are they claiming an American shot him?


4 posted on 04/09/2008 8:15:12 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: PotatoHeadMick

Blame America! It’s easy to do.


5 posted on 04/09/2008 8:15:22 PM PDT by b4its2late (Ignorance allows liberalism to prosper.)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
...were all killed by bullets from the same weapon, said a spokesman for the MoD.

But he could not verify that a single gunman was responsible.

I would suspect that it's the same person firing the (same) weapon.

6 posted on 04/09/2008 8:17:39 PM PDT by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: PotatoHeadMick

The caption to the picture in the article is “Aaron Lincoln: Killed by American-made bullets”.


7 posted on 04/09/2008 8:21:27 PM PDT by james500
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To: PotatoHeadMick

We’re in the process of moving Iraqi Army away from the AKs and giving them M-16A2/M-14s.


8 posted on 04/09/2008 8:27:27 PM PDT by james500
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To: PotatoHeadMick

We need to send a Carlos sniper of our own to stalk and kill theirs.


9 posted on 04/09/2008 8:36:01 PM PDT by therut
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To: PotatoHeadMick
Do you remember three Marine snipers getting cut off and killed?
10 posted on 04/09/2008 8:36:39 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (John McCain - The Manchurian Candidate? http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm)
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic
I have heard rumors of an Iranian shooter in Baghdad and Fallujah.
11 posted on 04/09/2008 8:37:21 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (John McCain - The Manchurian Candidate? http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
...the military cannot yet provide helmets strong enough to withstand such powerful ammunition.

Well, no. Military helmets are not constructed to resist direct hits by battle rifle ammunition. In fact, they never have been.

12 posted on 04/09/2008 8:38:06 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: PotatoHeadMick
All they have is the projectile, or bullet? (or have they located the spent brass, too?)
I'm wondering if it isn't some sort of handloader projectile, which is unique enough to identify the manufacturer. Otherwise...would NATO projectiles be as easy to identify as NATO brass is? I don't know. Not familiar enough with 5.56 NATO rounds to tell the difference. More into the 7.62, .308 basic equivilant. I don't know if one could tell for sure about those either, unless they were 146 grn. boattails, or something. Otherwise, they all look the same to me. So --- what could it be? Slightly different bases? Metallurgical signature? Saw it crosswise and look at how the lead "ball" is, and how thick or thin the case walls are? What makes it ID as U.S. manufacture?

Just tossing this out there...since I'd bet some freeper might know.

13 posted on 04/09/2008 8:44:05 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: Spktyr

How does the helmet stand up to M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo, 62 grain with steel tipped penatrating core?


14 posted on 04/09/2008 8:45:32 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

It’s Basra, so it could be some bad guys in the Iraqi forces.


15 posted on 04/09/2008 8:49:18 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: BlueDragon

Ok, read the article at the link [after posting, in fine freeper fashion]. Lake City Arsenal, huh? Birthplace of my .308
ball ammo boattails. They work real good in an old re-worked Mauser I used to be fond of. But then that gun used to really like 180 grn Federal “Classic”. ‘Can’t seem to find that particular ammo anymore...but it was amazingly good in that old rifle. There were times I could pick off a golf ball at a hundred yrds with set-up, using iron sights, to boot. Don’t quite have the eyes for it, now.


16 posted on 04/09/2008 8:54:20 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: Spktyr
It’s not hard to do. We’ve left or sold literally kilotons of the stuff all over the world in the last 40 years.

Plus it's available through military surplus, for instance, you can buy it right from Cheaper than Dirt.

Mark

17 posted on 04/09/2008 8:57:13 PM PDT by MarkL
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To: spunkets
Maybe your on to something. Who else make steel core 5.56?

Does that, or something similar come out of Lake City?

18 posted on 04/09/2008 8:57:21 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

Lake City Ammunition is a supplier to the military. The ammo could have been found locally after a battle or stolen after a convoy ambush or any number of other ways. It does not mean it was bought in the US.


19 posted on 04/09/2008 8:59:30 PM PDT by smoketree (the insanity, the lunacy these days)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
Wouldn't you love to know how they got their hands on US made ammunition.

Sounds more like someone has one of Saddam's hunting rifle's, ie, a 22-250 loaded with military bullets.

20 posted on 04/09/2008 9:01:44 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: BlueDragon
answer in post twenty
21 posted on 04/09/2008 9:04:16 PM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: Trailerpark Badass

Of course not, the article states clearly that they were not killed by friendly fire, merely that the sniper has access to American made ammo, there’s no implication that there’s an American sniper shooting British soldiers.


22 posted on 04/09/2008 9:04:16 PM PDT by PotatoHeadMick
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To: spunkets

I’d forgotten about that one. It doesn’t do so well against that - but it does well against the prior version.

That said, the Marines are beginning to deploy a new helmet which *will* stop the SS109 *cold*. Of course, the soldier will be unconscious or have a snapped neck... but the round won’t go through.


23 posted on 04/09/2008 9:04:28 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: spunkets

Should also mention that the Spanish (of all people) current issue helmet is proof against SS109 as well as 7.62 lead ball at all but the closest ranges - and this has been proven in Bosnia. I believe the current German helmet is also as good.

There are also a number of non-issue helmet makers that have models that are SS109 proof at *any* range.


24 posted on 04/09/2008 9:08:27 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: org.whodat

No, not if it's a 22-250 like that post suggests, since the last paragraph of the article states;

That might leave the possibility of a .223 nominal diameter [projectile] handload? I don't use .22-250. Is it .223 diameter projectile?

25 posted on 04/09/2008 9:10:54 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: BlueDragon; org.whodat
Wait a minute...the article said the imvestigation findings were Lake City Armory.

So we can forget about handloads, or 22-250's, I guess. If the investigation was correct. I doubt the British would make such an exact "Lake City" claim, if there wasn't some basis for it.

26 posted on 04/09/2008 9:15:00 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: Spktyr

I wish there were a few kilotons floating around SoCal gun shows. .223 is getting expensive these days!


27 posted on 04/09/2008 9:30:01 PM PDT by karnage
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To: karnage

I’m saving up for a pair of rifles - an FN FAL of some kind and the new Kel-Tec RFB in 7.62.


28 posted on 04/09/2008 9:43:39 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

“Wouldn’t you love to know how they got their hands on US made ammunition.”

I have boxes of Lake City ammunition. It’s supposedly the “match grade” military ammunition, suitable for competition. They dumped tons of the stuff on the market years ago; mine isn’t new manufacture by a long shot.

My question is, who makes ammo for the Brits?


29 posted on 04/09/2008 9:45:03 PM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: BlueDragon
We didn't get a weight, just a caliber. .22 caliber barrels are used for a wide variety of cartridges. Barrels are rifled in ranges from 1:7 to 1:14. Heavier bullets require a faster twist. The 5.7x28 uses 32 and 40 gr. The .223 market uses 46 to 80 gr bullets with 55 gr FMJ being most common. The military likes 62 gr in 1:8 barrel. The 80 gr needs a 1:7. You can get a look at the variety of .22 cal rifle bullets at this link. The same bullet will work fine in a 22-250.

The source of the bullets and rifle is irrelevant. The problem is the person targeting the British soldiers. Proving that the same rifle was used in each case means it is likely that there is ONE person to track down.

The rifling pattern might be enough to make an educated guess about the manufacturer of the rifle. Rifling can spiral in a right or left direction. The rifling can be created by cutting, button rifling, or by forging the barrel around a mandrel. Each manufacturer has a particular technique. S&W uses a "gain twist" rifling that rotates faster at the muzzle than at the breech. The value in that approach is less deforming of the bullet.

30 posted on 04/09/2008 10:04:57 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: PotatoHeadMick

I know a guy that took a 5.56 to the back of the head. Knocked him out cold but the round didn’t penetrate.


31 posted on 04/09/2008 10:09:48 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Democrats - The Original Slave Owners)
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To: Myrddin
Ok, good info. They did say that at least some of them were shot with the same rifle, which was the part of the point of the article. One particular sniper, or weapon. But that still doesn't touch the Lake City Armory mention as source for the ammo. A couple of my previous posts were just pointless ramblings, which has only helped get things sidetracked.

One sniper. Using 5.56 NATO Lake City manufacture ammo. Like others have said here, they themselves have bought surplus 5.56 Lake City, so the ammo may or may not have come from directly from currently used U.S. forces, supply source.

Or it may have, since we've provided more than a few of our own M-16 variants, and ammo, to Iraqi forces. Some of it, once under the authority of the Iraqis, has walked off. Or so news articles I have read [a while back] have reported. I have no reason to believe that this is not possible.

This sniper might be toast already, if he'd been one of Mookie's boys.

32 posted on 04/09/2008 10:49:33 PM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
First: it's a war zone, it's blanketed with both 7.65 and 5.56 arms..
Some British genius can prove that five rounds came from a single barrel?
(If so, they're part way to deciding whether it's an issue rifle or not...I kind of doubt that.)

Second, "cannot yet provide helmets strong enough to withstand such powerful ammunition" is not supported anywhere in he article.
"Such powerful ammunition" suggests either (dangerously) hand loaded .223 with or without non standard bullets, or mil-std loads with after market bullets (I've done both with Brit .303), or they're referring to issue 5.56, which is, in fact, "high power" by definition (necked, center fire, jacketed, high velocity).

In fact, all they can honestly say is that it was a 5.56 round, article does not specify armor piercing, standard jacketed, commercial, or other.
Relative power isn't in the equation unless they are assuming it because the helmet was penetrated. (As far as that goes, the standard test for a military round used to be it's ability to punch through a standard helmet at 100 yards.)

Coming out on the same day - I wonder if this is someone's attempt to balance (or improve upon) the "Iraqi's snub British troops" report from the Basra operation??

Finally;
Someone much more recently GI than I am might need to correct me, but -
A head shot, on a helmet, at some considerable range, with a varmint round?
(Target only has to move a fraction for "penetration" to mean "somewhat dented")

I'd happily strap that on if the target was a ground squirrel but for a hostile and helmeted human I'd want .308/.300 Win and I'd go for heart/lungs or pelvis. (Putting him down beats a missed shot or an embarrassing dent.)

33 posted on 04/09/2008 10:55:15 PM PDT by norton
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To: Spktyr

Get a SOCOM if you don’t have one already.


34 posted on 04/09/2008 11:06:50 PM PDT by karnage
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To: BlueDragon

Yes, that’s Lake City ammo.


35 posted on 04/09/2008 11:17:18 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
'This 5.56mm, U.S. manufactured round was not fired by friendly forces.

Surprising that a comparitively light round (5.56 mm) would penetrate a helmet.

36 posted on 04/09/2008 11:19:46 PM PDT by Mogollon (Vote straight GOP for congress....our only protection against Obama-Clinton, or McCain.)
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To: Spktyr

Thanks. I would guess that this is std ammo over there and the source and probably the shooter is one of the friendly Iraqi forces.


37 posted on 04/09/2008 11:29:27 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: karnage

Saw it, tried it, am more likely to get an M14 later, then convert to LAW483 stock.

Also, the FAL balances better for me. And the parts and mags are tons cheaper.


38 posted on 04/09/2008 11:30:48 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: spunkets

Yeah - but the crack about “no helmets can withstand it” is false.

That said, this may be “field resupply” as we and the Iraqis have lost men equipped with such weapons, and the terrs probably got ahold of some.


39 posted on 04/09/2008 11:31:48 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: PotatoHeadMick
US gun laws don't apply to governments. There are lots of us weapons and ammo over there. I met a army person who had been hit in the leg by a Check three man sniper team. They were taken out with an AT 10 and before he left he was handed the model 70 and what was left of one of their passports
40 posted on 04/10/2008 12:03:03 AM PDT by Domangart (editor and publisher)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

Best way to stop a sniper is with another sniper. Instead of making a big deal over this guy using US-made ammo, the Brits should be stalking this guy.

Hard to do that sitting on an airfield outside of town.


41 posted on 04/10/2008 5:04:59 AM PDT by LSUfan
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To: BlueDragon
I was doing some Linux work down at my local FFL's store last night. He has a very large pile of Lake City manufactured 69 gr .223 ammo for sale. It's really not that hard to find. The important issue is that 7 rounds fired from the same rifle point to a single individual that needs some "special" attention.
42 posted on 04/10/2008 7:30:42 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: PotatoHeadMick

There are literally billions of ‘em in that area.
That the opposition got their hands on 7 is no surprise.


43 posted on 04/10/2008 7:34:40 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. - Ratatouille)
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To: Spktyr

FAL is a great rifle. So is M-1A.


44 posted on 04/10/2008 9:10:11 AM PDT by karnage
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To: BlueDragon
That might leave the possibility of a .223 nominal diameter [projectile] handload? I don't use .22-250. Is it .223 diameter projectile?

Have reloaded ammo for thirty years, but her's your information, .224" - .22 WMR, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .22-250 Varminter, .223 WSSM (http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_diameter.htm)

45 posted on 04/10/2008 9:25:20 AM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: BlueDragon
So we can forget about handloads, or 22-250's, I guess. If the investigation was correct. I doubt the British would make such an exact "Lake City" claim, if there wasn't some basis for it.

Wrong, the Brit's only have the bullet, a green tipped .224 penetrator, there is no way they would know what it was fired from, since many custom barrels use the same number of rifling's and just change the twist. But if it was a left are right hand twist might help.

46 posted on 04/10/2008 9:32:37 AM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: org.whodat

Where does the green tip info come from? A link to that might be nice. If what you say is true (green tipped .224 penetrator) then is it safe to assume that only Lake City makes it?


47 posted on 04/10/2008 9:58:31 AM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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To: BlueDragon

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM249-56942-67.html


48 posted on 04/10/2008 10:21:37 AM PDT by org.whodat (What's the difference between a Democrat and a republican????)
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To: karnage
Here is an M-14/M-1A in a LAW483/Troy stock:

More info here.

49 posted on 04/10/2008 10:27:10 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: org.whodat
What I meant by a link was, WHERE does is say the British were claiming it was .224 penatrator. Sheesh...

I could look up domestic sources for the product myself.

50 posted on 04/10/2008 10:27:30 AM PDT by BlueDragon (here's the thing; do recognize the bell of truth when you here it ring, c'mon and sing it children)
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