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To: LSUfan

During the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery by the body-armored AK 47 toting bady guys, the cops didn’t have enough firepower and had to go to a local gun store to get high-powered rifles........ they didn’t grab .223’s.


16 posted on 04/10/2008 7:24:51 PM PDT by umgud
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To: umgud

Unless the gun store had a lot of AR-10s, some officers grabbed .223s. .308 is great, but .223 will deal with most body armor, has less danger of overpenetration and is easier to shoot.

This move makes sense on a couple of levels. First, the AR-15s can be carried in the passenger compartment, so they will be available when needed. AR-15s with adjustable stocks are better for smaller (read female) officers.


23 posted on 04/10/2008 7:46:50 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: umgud

“the cops didn’t have enough firepower and had to go to a local gun store to get high-powered rifles........ they didn’t grab .223’s”

On the contrary. The after action reports that I read stated that the weapons the officers initially obtained were indeed garden variety civilian model AR-15’s in .223, which was far more firepower than the sidearms and riot shotguns that the PD originally had available to them. As others have pointed out, .308 may be fine in sparsely populated areas, but in urban environments the possibility of that high powered a round going somewhere it shouldn’t becomes problematic. You may check with your local SWAT unit for a discussion of the benefits of .223 in densely populated areas vs. the problems of using .308 or even 30.06. Please understand that .308 or 30.06 both have their place in a SWAT teams set of tools (ie. punching through glass), but in a hostage situation, where one does not always know what the backdrop is, or what is behind the backdrop a well placed round in .223 has fewer collateral problems.

Even .223 can be too much firepower in very densely populated environments. I can remember that immediately after 9-11, my airline was one of the few carriers hauling pax’s as all of the others took up to a week to come back from an understandably “shocky” standstill. I had heard that the government had been posting National Guard sentries at the concourse security checkpoints armed with M-16’s. Given the fact that the M-16 is a fully automatic weapon, and the constuction material used in modern concourses is hardly more substantial than cardboard, a number of the pilots at my carrier thought that this was a remarkably ill advised weapon, if it actually had to be used (especially in fully automatic mode). Seeing one of these fellows standing beside the checkpoint I decided to address the issue. After all, he was in uniform, I was in uniform. What could be the harm in a few discrete questions between a couple of professionals?

After the usual pleasantries (one sided in this case as the NG was rather ..... stern), I addressed my concern directly. “So, do they actually allow you guys to keep rounds in that weapon?”. All I got was a fleeting grimace, which was answer enough for me. I nodded, and quietly allowed as to how a burst from that weapon, directed down the concourse would quite probably wipe out far more passengers than the terrorist could. Even fully jacketed military .223 would be devastating on a densely populated concourse. The soldier carrying the weapon certainly did look impressive, even though all he could have done was club the terrorist with that (probably) unloaded M16.

There is no magic bullet/round. It all depends on the environment it is to be used in, and the training of the professional carrying the weapon.


38 posted on 04/10/2008 11:20:32 PM PDT by Habibi
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To: umgud
During the infamous North Hollywood bank robbery by the body-armored AK 47 toting bady guys, the cops didn’t have enough firepower and had to go to a local gun store to get high-powered rifles........ they didn’t grab .223’s.

They also apparently didn't fill out Form 4473, thus engaging in illegal transfers.

one thousand one......one thousand two........one thousand three........
50 posted on 04/11/2008 8:32:28 AM PDT by rickomatic
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