Posted on 04/18/2008 12:21:19 PM PDT by Constitutionalist1958
I don’t want to minimize the problems with burning CS, but the bodies that were recovered were extensively burned. The doubling-over backward is likely an artifact of burning. The muscles contract, and the back muscles are far more massive than the abdominal muscles, and so the distortion. It’s been my misfortune to see this on a number of occasions.
That having been said, it still would have been unbearable to be a child exposed to that much gas.
Sure, ignore the fact that the Davidians shot and killed four officers and wounded 16 others that tried to serve a warrant to arrest their leader.
Ignore that the FBI tried for days to get them to surrender before trying to drive them out.
Ignore that the FBI breached the compound in a number of places to give the people inside a chance to get out.
Instead you just decide, basically based on nothing, that the evil government intentionally burned to death all those people including women and children, despite all their efforts to try and get them to leave safely.
The Davidians could have allowed the women and children to safely leave before the situation which they escalated, escalated again. They instead chose to try and use those women and children as a shield against the consequences of their own actions. They hid behind them.
It's a horrible tragedy that innocent people died in the raid. However, the Davidians were apparently more than willing to risk the lives of those innocent people. They were murderous cowards that deserve their current home in the fiery pit of hell.
But hey, why place blame on the Davidians when you can do everything in your power to ignore the facts and come op with some way with your limited knowledge of the facts, that you think the government should have done things differently.
Maybe they didn't arrest him in town because they had a warrant to search the compound as well, and why have two risky operations instead of one? It's not like they weren't still going to have to serve a warrant at the compound even if the arrested Koresh while he was in town. And in town it would be easier for him to get away, and there would have been people around that were in no way related to the actions of Koresh that would have been put in danger.
But where is the fun in that? Those bozos just love the chance to do a "dynamic entry".
It is the SWAT mentality, over and over.
When three men who were not present during the initial government raid tried to return to be with their families inside Mt. Carmel, more trouble took place.
Two men were taken into custody and agents killed Michael Dean Schroeder.
His body was left out in the open in a ravine for five days. The BATF claims Schroeder refused demands to surrender and raised a pistol. The autopsy report shows seven bullets hit him, according to Whitehurst.
Survivors reported that after Schroeder was shot, and after they were being led away and taken into custody, two additional shots were fired, which they believe were made because Schroeder was not dead yet. The autopsy report does show two bullet holes right next to each other in Schroeder's head.
“So which is it? Is there some evidence that people were shot as they exited the compound or was all the evidence destroyed?”
Both, there is video of bullets holes in metal doors which appeared to be from external sources. the door with the holes disappeared after they cleaned up the site. The Texas rangers also testified before Congress that they saw people pouring bleach on evidence the day after the fire.
“What exactly was the evidence that points to your theory that people were shot as they exited the burning building?”
The fact that dead people were found shot outside the building. Witness statements from the few survivors.
CS is a powder. The liquid used as a carrier was Methylene Chloride.
in order to save the server at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m4420.htm
I’ll post the whole thing here. No one was meant to get out alive. Keep in mind this was pumped into a building containing children “for the children”.
MSDS Number: M4420 * * * * * Effective Date: 10/06/05 * * * * * Supercedes: 05/14/03
METHYLENE CHLORIDE
1. Product Identification
Synonyms: MC; Dichloromethane (DCM); Methylene dichloride; Methylene bichloride; Methane dichloride
CAS No.: 75-09-2
Molecular Weight: 84.93
Chemical Formula: CH2Cl2
Product Codes: 9235, 9264, 9266, 9295, 9315, 9324, 9329, 9330, 9348, 9350, 9965, Q480
2. Composition/Information on Ingredients
Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
-——————————————————— —————— —————— -————
Methylene Chloride 75-09-2 > 99% Yes
3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
Potential Health Effects
Inhalation:
Causes irritation to respiratory tract. Has a strong narcotic effect with symptoms of mental confusion, light-headedness, fatigue, nausea, vomiting and headache. Causes formation of carbon monoxide in blood which affects cardiovascular system and central nervous system. Continued exposure may cause increased light-headedness, staggering, unconsciousness, and even death. Exposure may make the symptoms of angina (chest pains) worse.
Ingestion:
May cause irritation of the gastrointestinal tract with vomiting. If vomiting results in aspiration, chemical pneumonia could follow. Absorption through gastrointestinal tract may produce symptoms of central nervous system depression ranging from light headedness to unconsciousness.
Skin Contact:
Causes irritation, redness and pain. Prolonged contact can cause burns. Liquid degreases the skin. May be absorbed through skin.
Eye Contact:
Vapors can cause eye irritation. Contact can produce pain, inflammation and temporal eye damage.
Chronic Exposure:
Can cause headache, mental confusion, depression, liver effects, kidney effects, bronchitis, loss of appetite, nausea, lack of balance, and visual disturbances. Can cause dermatitis upon prolonged skin contact. Methylene chloride may cause cancer in humans.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders, eye problems, impaired liver, kidney, respiratory or cardiovascular function may be more susceptible to the effects of this substance.
4. First Aid Measures
Inhalation:
Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Get medical attention.
Ingestion:
If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Get medical attention immediately.
Skin Contact:
Immediately flush skin with plenty of soap and water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing and shoes. Get medical attention. Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly clean shoes before reuse.
Eye Contact:
Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Get medical attention immediately.
5. Fire Fighting Measures
Fire:
Autoignition temperature: 556C (1033F)
Flammable limits in air % by volume:
lel: 12; uel: 23
Forms flammable vapor-air mixtures above 100C (212F).
Explosion:
Concentrated can be ignited by a high intensity ignition source. Vapor may form flammable mixture in atmosphere that contains a high percentage of oxygen. Sealed containers may rupture when heated.
Fire Extinguishing Media:
Dry chemical, foam or carbon dioxide. Water spray may be used to keep fire exposed containers cool.
Special Information:
In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode. Combustion by-products include phosgene and hydrogen chloride gases. Structural firefighters’ clothing provides only limited protection to the combustion products of this material.
6. Accidental Release Measures
Ventilate area of leak or spill. Remove all sources of ignition. Wear appropriate personal protective equipment as specified in Section 8. Isolate hazard area. Keep unnecessary and unprotected personnel from entering. Contain and recover liquid when possible. Use non-sparking tools and equipment. Collect liquid in an appropriate container or absorb with an inert material (e. g., vermiculite, dry sand, earth), and place in a chemical waste container. Do not use combustible materials, such as saw dust. Do not flush to sewer! US Regulations (CERCLA) require reporting spills and releases to soil, water and air in excess of reportable quantities. The toll free number for the US Coast Guard National Response Center is (800) 424-8802.
7. Handling and Storage
Keep in a tightly closed container, stored in a cool, dry, ventilated area. Protect against physical damage. Isolate from any source of heat or ignition. Outside or detached storage is recommended. Containers of this material may be hazardous when empty since they retain product residues (vapors, liquid); observe all warnings and precautions listed for the product. To minimize decomposition, all storage containers should be galvanized or lined with a phenolic coating. This material may corrode plastic and rubber. Wear special protective equipment (Sec. 8) for maintenance break-in or where exposures may exceed established exposure levels. Wash hands, face, forearms and neck when exiting restricted areas. Shower, dispose of outer clothing, change to clean garments at the end of the day. Avoid cross-contamination of street clothes. Wash hands before eating and do not eat, drink, or smoke in workplace. Odor Threshold: 205 - 307 ppm. The odor threshold only serves as a warning of exposure; not smelling it does not mean you are not being exposed.
8. Exposure Controls/Personal Protection
Airborne Exposure Limits:
Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane):
- OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) -
25 ppm (TWA), 125 ppm (STEL), 12.5 ppm (8-hour TWA - Action Level)
- ACGIH Threshold Limit Value (TLV) -
50 ppm (TWA), A3 - suspected human carcinogen.
Ventilation System:
A system of local and/or general exhaust is recommended to keep employee exposures below the Airborne Exposure Limits. Local exhaust ventilation is generally preferred because it can control the emissions of the contaminant at its source, preventing dispersion of it into the general work area. Please refer to the ACGIH document, Industrial Ventilation, A Manual of Recommended Practices, most recent edition, for details.
Personal Respirators (NIOSH Approved):
If the exposure limit is exceeded, wear a supplied air, full-facepiece respirator, airlined hood, or full-facepiece self-contained breathing apparatus. The cartridges recommended for this material have a predicted service of less than 30 minutes at concentrations of ten times (10x) the exposure limits. Actual service life will vary considerbly, depending on concentration levels, temperature, humidity, and work rate. This substance has poor warning properties.
Skin Protection:
Wear impervious protective clothing, including boots, gloves, lab coat, apron or coveralls, as appropriate, to prevent skin contact. Neoprene is a recommended material for personal protective equipment. Natural rubber and polyvinyl chloride ARE NOT recommended materials for personal protective equipment.
Eye Protection:
Use chemical safety goggles and/or a full face shield where splashing is possible. Maintain eye wash fountain and quick-drench facilities in work area.
Other Control Measures:
Do not use closed circuit rebreathing system employing soda lime or other carbon dioxide absorber because of formation of toxic compounds capable of producing cranial nerve paralysis. See OSHA Standard for medical surveillance, record keeping, and reporting requirements for methylene chloride (29 CFR 1910.1052).
9. Physical and Chemical Properties
Appearance:
Clear, colorless liquid.
Odor:
Chloroform-like odor.
Solubility:
1.32 gm/100 gm water @ 20C.
Specific Gravity:
1.318 @ 25C
pH:
No information found.
% Volatiles by volume @ 21C (70F):
100
Boiling Point:
39.8C (104F)
Melting Point:
-97C (-143F)
Vapor Density (Air=1):
2.9
Vapor Pressure (mm Hg):
350 @ 20C (68F)
Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1):
27.5
10. Stability and Reactivity
Stability:
Stable under ordinary conditions of use and storage.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Emits highly toxic fumes of phosgene when heated to decomposition. Decomposes in a flame or hot surface to form toxic gas phosgene and corrosive mists of hydrochloric acid. Carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide may form when heated to decomposition.
Hazardous Polymerization:
Will not occur.
Incompatibilities:
Strong oxidizers, strong caustics, plastics, rubber, nitric acid, water + heat, and chemically active metals, such as aluminum and magnesium powder, sodium, potassium, and lithium. Avoid contact with open flames and electrical arcs. Liquid methylene chloride will attack some forms of plastics, rubber, and coatings.
Conditions to Avoid:
Moisture, heat, flames, ignition sources and incompatibles.
11. Toxicological Information
Toxicological Data:
Dichloromethane: Oral rat LD50: 1600 mg/kg; inhalation rat LC50: 52 gm/m3; investigated as a tumorigen, mutagen, reproductive effector.
Reproductive Toxicity:
Dichloromethane has been linked to spontaneous abortions in humans.
————\Cancer Lists\———————————————————————————
-—NTP Carcinogen-—
Ingredient Known Anticipated IARC Category
—————————————————— -—— -————— -——————
Methylene Chloride (75-09-2) No Yes 2B
12. Ecological Information
Environmental Fate:
When released into the soil, this material may leach into groundwater. When released into the soil, this material is expected to quickly evaporate. When released into water, this material may biodegrade to a moderate extent. When released to water, this material is expected to quickly evaporate. This material has a log octanol-water partition coefficient of less than 3.0. This material is not expected to significantly bioaccumulate. When released into the air, this material may be moderately degraded by reaction with photochemically produced hydroxyl radicals. When released into the air, this material is expected to have a half-life of greater than 30 days. When released into the air, this material may be removed from the atmosphere to a moderate extent by wet deposition.
Environmental Toxicity:
The LC50/96-hour values for fish are over 100 mg/l. This material is not expected to be toxic to aquatic life.
13. Disposal Considerations
Whatever cannot be saved for recovery or recycling should be handled as hazardous waste and sent to a RCRA approved incinerator or disposed in a RCRA approved waste facility. Processing, use or contamination of this product may change the waste management options. State and local disposal regulations may differ from federal disposal regulations. Dispose of container and unused contents in accordance with federal, state and local requirements.
14. Transport Information
Domestic (Land, D.O.T.)
International (Water, I.M.O.)
International (Air, I.C.A.O.)
15. Regulatory Information
————\Chemical Inventory Status - Part 1\-————————————————
Ingredient TSCA EC Japan Australia
-——————————————————————— —— -— -—— -————
Methylene Chloride (75-09-2) Yes Yes Yes Yes
————\Chemical Inventory Status - Part 2\-————————————————
—Canada—
Ingredient Korea DSL NDSL Phil.
-——————————————————————— -—— -— —— -——
Methylene Chloride (75-09-2) Yes Yes No Yes
————\Federal, State & International Regulations - Part 1\————————
-SARA 302- ———SARA 313———
Ingredient RQ TPQ List Chemical Catg.
-———————————————————— -— -—— —— ———————
Methylene Chloride (75-09-2) No No Yes No
————\Federal, State & International Regulations - Part 2\————————
-RCRA- -TSCA-
Ingredient CERCLA 261.33 8(d)
-———————————————————— ——— ——— ———
Methylene Chloride (75-09-2) 1000 U080 No
Chemical Weapons Convention: No TSCA 12(b): No CDTA: No
SARA 311/312: Acute: Yes Chronic: Yes Fire: No Pressure: No
Reactivity: No (Pure / Liquid)
WARNING:
THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS A CHEMICAL(S) KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER.
Australian Hazchem Code: 2Z
Poison Schedule: S5
WHMIS:
This MSDS has been prepared according to the hazard criteria of the Controlled Products Regulations (CPR) and the MSDS contains all of the information required by the CPR.
16. Other Information
NFPA Ratings: Health: 2 Flammability: 1 Reactivity: 0
Label Hazard Warning:
WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, LIVER, CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM, AND BLOOD. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. SUSPECT CANCER HAZARD. MAY CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends on level and duration of exposure.
Label Precautions:
Do not breathe vapor.
Keep container closed.
Use only with adequate ventilation.
Wash thoroughly after handling.
Keep away from heat and flame.
Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Label First Aid:
If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. In case of contact, immediately flush eyes or skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing and shoes. Wash clothing before reuse. In all cases, get medical attention.
Product Use:
Laboratory Reagent.
Revision Information:
MSDS Section(s) changed since last revision of document include: 14.
Disclaimer:
************************************************************************************************
Mallinckrodt Baker, Inc. provides the information contained herein in good faith but makes no representation as to its comprehensiveness or accuracy. This document is intended only as a guide to the appropriate precautionary handling of the material by a properly trained person using this product. Individuals receiving the information must exercise their independent judgment in determining its appropriateness for a particular purpose. MALLINCKRODT BAKER, INC. MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE WITH RESPECT TO THE INFORMATION SET FORTH HEREIN OR THE PRODUCT TO WHICH THE INFORMATION REFERS. ACCORDINGLY, MALLINCKRODT BAKER, INC. WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR DAMAGES RESULTING FROM USE OF OR RELIANCE UPON THIS INFORMATION.
************************************************************************************************
Prepared by: Environmental Health & Safety
Phone Number: (314) 654-1600 (U.S.A.)
And besides, they were just following orders.
There were many innocent children, all the way down to infants in the compound. If the government believed Koresh was so dangerous then plausibly many people inside might have been hostages in one way or another. Any plans should have been focused around saving the children. The plan they came up with was brain-dead.
There were many innocent children, all the way down to infants in the compound. If the government believed Koresh was so dangerous then plausibly many people inside might have been hostages in one way or another. Any plans should have been focused around saving the children. The plan they came up with was brain-dead.
“The doubling-over backward is likely an artifact of burning. The muscles contract, and the back muscles are far more massive than the abdominal muscles, and so the distortion.”
Possible, in the report I read the authors attributed the death to the chemicals and not to fire. I don’t remember who the author was but it was a credible source. Certainly NOT worldnetdaily.
“That having been said, it still would have been unbearable to be a child exposed to that much gas.”
They found the gas in the child lungs there were pretty sure she was alive up until this point. I believe she was 8 or 10 years old.
At least they didn’t burn them out this time.
Why did so many people elect not to leave the building?
Why is it that none of the agents who were involved have come forward to say that their commander gave them orders to shoot?
If they were to do that, the commander would be indicted and he would roll over on Janet Reno and she would roll over on BC.
The agent in question would be granted immunity and treated as a hero..
It was widely discussed on FR and other right wing sites. It was discussed on left wing sites too. While some were indifferent many felt it was a terrible wrong.
And of course lets not forget the most horrible and infamous response to this: the Murrah Federal Building bombing was undertaken by Tim McVeigh and his accomplices to get even for Waco. It happened on the same day.
These are the saddest posts I've read in a while. So instead of arresting the POS cult leader in town, the FBI tear gassed children and through their incompetence, inadvertently caused 22 children to be burned alive.
If they were hostages, why is it that many were free to leave the compound after the 2/29/93?
The plan they came up with was brain-dead.
Yes it was.
“Why did so many people elect not to leave the building?”
I dunno, perhaps because they couldn’t. Perhaps because they were afraid of being shot. Perhaps because they were scared.
The entire incident started when a UPS driver dropped a box he was delivering to the site. A fake grenade rolled out of the torn box. The driver thought it was real and reported it. The Davidians made most of their money legally selling firearms at gunshows. Fake paperweights grenades were one of the items.
The weapons charges the BATF accused them of were completely false as they were licensed to sell the weapons they possessed.
“Why is it that none of the agents who were involved have come forward to say that their commander gave them orders to shoot?”
The Justice Department came out and said the agents were above the law.
“The agent in question would be granted immunity and treated as a hero..”
They were. However I don’t see your worship of these people to be warranted. They handled an incident with complete incompetence bringing discredit to their agency and to the entire United States Government. Oh and their actions also resulted in the deaths of some 80 men, women and children.
The agent(s) in question should be staked down and burned alive.
Why did they destroy evidence after the fire?
“These are the saddest posts I’ve read in a while.”
IMO it was a terrible event in the history of our country. It was about power and ego and had nothing to do with law enforcement.
” So instead of arresting the POS cult leader in town, the FBI tear gassed children and through their incompetence, inadvertently caused 22 children to be burned alive. “
Nothing inadvertent about it. They knew the outcome was very likely and the only reason not to wait was because they were tired of having egg on their face. IMO these people died because they embarrassed the Clintons, FBI, BATF and Reno.
"To be honest with you, I'd not shed a single tear if someone nuked Washington DC"
which I've been requested to change by one of the mods. Apparently someone here thinks there would be a downside. I disagree.
geez, those look like tanks. I thought they couldnt be used against Americans???!!!
/vomit
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