Posted on 04/20/2008 7:01:51 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
It has been more than two weeks since Texas Rangers raided the Yearning for Zion Ranch, seizing more than 400 children on vague evidence of polygamy and child abuse.
To the credit of law enforcement authorities, no one was injured. Apparently, only two men were arrested, while another is being sought in another state for his role in alleged sexual abuse. Little resistance was offered by the sect's followers.
Now, I don't like polygamy.
And I don't like child abuse.
But, after carefully reading all the news reports covering activities of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am left wondering if the action by the state was excessive.
An investigation of the compound had been under way for four years. A confidential informant, a former member of the sect, was providing authorities with details of activities.
The raid was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. He is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl.
In other words, the chief suspect was known, in advance, not to be in the ranch compound.
Since the raid, the 16-year-old girl who allegedly made the complaint has not been found. In fact, she may never have existed in the first place. Authorities now suspect a woman in another state, known for making unfounded accusations, may have been responsible for the call.
So let's look at the criminal evidence that has been discovered since the raid:
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
Texas’ action was actually way too late; this has been going on for years and everybody has known about it.
Of course, polygamy and the virtual enslavement of women and the forced marriages, brainwashing and sexual abuse of their female children are also going on in every Muslim “compound” in upstate New York, Virginia, Southern California, etc., and not only is nothing being done about it, nothing will ever be done about it.
This topic is beginning to remind me of the Scott Peterson threads. Too many Freepers turned against each other needlessly.
Yet another sensible article on the subject.. and there will still be all the usual witchhunters commenting on how they are all obviously criminals because they read it in the MSM, and how they should all be punished for something...never mind the facts of the case kids.. and please, turn a blind eye to the constitution and due process.. they don’t think like you, you don’t like their ideas about religion, that justifies taking 400 children away from their mothers...
Well, it is natural at FreeRepublic that some:
1. members would emphasize the Free part
2. other members would emphasize the Republic part
I tend toward the Free side and skepticism of the state.
The constitution and due process: INDEED!
Let’s see. Imagine a middle-school in Texas.
Imagine an anonymous phone-call from that middle-school to authorities claiming rape and abuse... (yes, it’s terrible).
Now imagine authorities removing ALL THE CHILDREN from the middle-school and NOT RETURNING THEM to their parents.
Now imagine the outcry from across the United States.
Now imagine the outcry.
Imagine.
If there are charges against specific offenses; then BRING them- but not against the children. (I understand their were multiple teenage pregnancies... GASP!) ...but there are in HOUSTON TOO!! We need facts. A social agency should of set up shop there for a month or two - oh sorry, I won’t speculate more...
This was trauma for the children.
This is inexcusable. I’m offended!
Once again, big government with low budget just CANNOT get it right.
Perhaps they should of gone to MONSANTO or EXXON to determine a more ‘friendly’ way of taking down the polygamists (and potential abusers)... you know, in a ‘corporate way’, etc. we’ll see...
... you
...in COURT !!
Good luck to the innocent of El Dorado.
As I understand it, it is not a “criminal” issue and different standards of warrant apply in cases of alleged child abuse.
I don’t give a rats ass who called or din’t call in the complaint.
Girls (minors) should not be passed around for old men to rape them. So far they have found over 20 minors who have had kids or are pregnant.
This is a perverted cult that should have been shut down years ago.
If 18 year old adults want to play house with multiple husbands/wives I’m OK with that. This does not appear to be a David Koresh, Branch Dravidian or a Jim Jones, People’s Temple kind of thing.
Still, no one in their right mind supports children having children and that has to stop. And it’s clear some of this was going on. The difficulty is... guilt by association, and the assumption that 400 kids will be better off as wards of the state and that every parent was guilt of the abuse. Barf on both their houses.
At least this time, the BATF did not use the flame-throwers. And will they did employ machine guns, they did not fire them, especially not from helicopter gunships.
^^^^^^^^^
What Farrah said.
No, it wasn’t “excessive”.
It was LONG OVER DUE.
What was wrong was the state not stopping these people from being perverts and breaking our LAWS.
Notice how they all tend to look alike? Lots of inbreeding going on there. It was a pedophile heaven on earth.
It reminds of ILLEGAL immigration.
We wink at that and don’t ENFORCE our LAWS.
Instead we’ve had a lottery now and then to REWARD ILLEGALS.
“What I do doubt is that it was appropriate and legal to seize more than 400 children on such skimpy and non-specific evidence of real criminal abuse.”
I agree with Farah on this one. The Texas authorities, and Utah and wherever else members of this sect live, and the federal authorities, have known about this compound in Texas since it was built. If they want to begin ending the illegal practices they “believe” take place there, they should gather specific evidence against specific individuals, most likely the men. They apparently had nothing but a bogus phone call from a woman who later tried to disappear from the situation.
There was no justification for taking 412 children from their mothers and their home, 100 of them four or younger. Does anyone doubt this was/is a terrifying experience for these kids? These ham-handed bunglers weren’t concerned about the children. You don’t take hundreds of children from the only home they’ve ever known on no evidence whatsoever. And the children have committed no offense, and there was NO evidence that any specific child had been abused.
These little storm troopers in Texas need to acquire specific evidence involving specific individuals. And I don’t think any of the children, or even the mothers will be found to have committed a crime. But they seem to be bearing the burden in this sham of an operation. - And what sort of judge abets this nonsense, ignoring the rights of hundreds of innocent people to allow this nonsense to proceed.
Talk of putting all these kids in foster care sounds like something out of the Stalinist USSR.
“Good luck to the innocent of El Dorado”
Yes, and may the sick perverts who created a cult of brainwashed sex slaves burn in hell forever.
Can you imagine anything sicker than old men having babies, to raise them to puberty, to trade with their brothers and cousins for sex?
Yes, I can imagine something worse. Telling the sick and vile lie to these poor children, that this sexual abuse by old perverts is God’s will.
It's wrong to allow this continue.
Returning those children sets them up for a lifetime of sexual abuse and confusion. As hard as it is, these kids need a chance at a normal, healthy life. These “mothers” are not capable of giving that to these children. They're brainwashed into believing raping young girls and multiple husbands is okay - they dealt with it and see nothing wrong with their kids doing this. It has to STOP.
These kids need special care. They are confused and scared. What might be helpful to them is FORMER LDSers be involved to help them over come this crazy mindset. ALL must be done for these innocent kids.
My suspicion is that a lot of the principles involved in investigating the case, and who were overseeing and responsible for the over-reaction by authorities, were Christians.
“Notice how they all tend to look alike? Lots of inbreeding going on there. It was a pedophile heaven on earth.”
And you have specific evidence of that, involving specific individuals, and that evidence would stand up in court?
Why not show it to us?
You don't RAPE little girls.
Incest is not welcome in the U.S. either.
It's clearly a situation of breaking our LAWS.
Their “beliefs” - polygamy are clearly against the law. It should have been stopped YEARS AGO. Now is a good time as any to STOP THE CYCLE OF ABUSE.
“Girls (minors) should not be passed around for old men to rape them. So far they have found over 20 minors who have had kids or are pregnant.”
No one disagrees with those points. As soon as the courts — the only thing we’ve got to determine truth to a degree where we break the sacred ties of parenthood — we’ll take action.
What some of us are saying is that everything that Conservatives hold sacred about Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Assembly, and Due Process under the Law has been violated. What some of us are saying is that, to date, we’ve got tons of fanatical accusations — remember the McMartin PreSchool? — and some expert opinions, but virtually zero evidence.
What some of us are saying is that the children involved have doubtless been traumatized by this experience. To pull a FLDS child and put them into a secular home is akin to pulling an Amish kid and putting them in a secular home. These kids were separated at gunpoint, and subjected to anal and pubic exams en masse, with nary a person around that they knew.
Let me be clear — when we find a child molester, I’m in favor of burning at the stake. I’ve been on a jury where we convicted such a person. However, we were a JURY, in a COURTROOM, with a JUDGE and we FOLLOWED THE RULES.
bookmark
The problem is that it is very hard to get ANY information from people who are basically imprisoned, particularly since most of them have never known anything but this strange environment since infancy. In addition, they all know there are severe penalties for rebelling, which may even include being murdered.
This is a long-running cult; it’s main leader is in jail now, but his heirs are still installed and doing just fine living off of welfare in various states to support their herd of wives.
Why not show it to us?”
They are gathering it as we converse.
The DNA will be available to prove it.
It's DISGUSTING what these “adults” are doing - especially the males ... .
Good point. Remember this comparison: the people who perform ritual genital mutilation with razor blades on young girls across north Africa and much of the Middle East are none other than their own sweet mothers and aunts.
Returning children to these broken, brainwashed moms would be a crime.
This time, DNA samples are being taken from all of the kids. The truth will come out, and I suspect it will be shocking....especially when we learn of fathers who are at the same time grandfathers of the same children.
“This is a clear cut case of pedophilia gone wild.”
Prove it.
Seriously. Prove it. The Salem Witch Trials were started by the accusations of two girls, ages 9 and 11. Everyone “knew”.
Everyone “knew” that the workers at the McMartin Preschool, and many in other schools, had sex parties where they ritually abused kids.
Damn, I hope that some of you are NEVER accused of a vile crime, and have people respond like you respond in this case.
“What might be helpful to them is FORMER LDSers be involved to help them over come this crazy mindset. ALL must be done for these innocent kids.”
What might be most helpful to them would be to get the men who are guilty of crimes out of the group, and then recruit PRESENT DAY Mormons, who have nothing to do with this sect, to
help the mothers raise the children in the teachings of the mainstream Mormon Church.
The Mormons take care of their own more than most, and they’d help these mothers and children.
YUP! Taxpayers are paying these multiple wives WELFARE! Some of them men leave the “compound” and get work. The males, I don't dare call them “men”. hide behind their women. Some “religion” huh? They inbreed like rabbits, want YOU to support them and wander around like their in an 1800 time warp - all self righteous while their daughters are RAPED. Real nice ... . I hope these children are treated kindly and heal from this incredibly abusive cult.
“The truth will come out, and I suspect it will be shocking...”
And at that point I’ll be holding the stakes, the wood, and the matches.
The Mormons take care of their own more than most, and they’d help these mothers and children.”
Another solution to consider. While I have my differences with Mormonism, I pray these children see the light - if need be gradually with gentle, good people involved. Mormons, that we know that abhor polygamy are pretty decent people. I'd rather have some of them as my neighbors than some of these LIBERAL, and really godless “Christians”.
The men will be easily dealt with under current law. But what of the mothers who helped? We will see the “I was brainwashed and can't be held responsible” defense as never before, coming from the lips of women well over 21.
This is a strange and complicated situation. These people are theoretically on the outs with the LDS, but there actually is some sympathy for them there, because the modern mainstream Mormon decision on the issue of polygamy was what caused the split from this type of fundamentalist Mormonism that (a) produced the modern LDS and (b) permitted Utah to join the Union and stop fighting the United States. The result is that many modern Mormons are more than a little conflicted, and in states that have a large Mormon component - such as Colorado - these fundamentalist Mormon groups have gotten away with their behavior for many, many years.
They will prove it, with DNA. Any girls impregnated under the age of 16 will be proof, with dear old daddy (who may be dear old grand dad at the same time) held to account.
Well, it's time for Mormons who don't do this to speak up. Put the children first and perhaps consider taking them in. This would be less of a shock for them. I pray these children heal from this. They are the true victims here. It should NEVER, EVER have gone on as long as it has.
It's all about breaking the LAW. People can believe what they like ... but polygamy is against the LAW.
You can’t compare this cult to the Amish.
There was not a normal family unit in this cult.
As a ret. Legal Support Asst. with the County Attys, I delt with child abuse cases, some which made natioinal news. This cult should not have gone on as long as it did.
Now, there you go asking for evidence and proof and all of that good stuff that is supposed to be required to raid a community and take away every single child.
It is chilling that this appears to be a move by the government to raid, confiscate children and remove them to the care of the State and then investigate and try to find enough evidence to support the raid and removal of the children in the first place.
If the government had prior evidence that rape and abuse was occurring, enough so for at least a judge to sign a warrant to raid the place, what and where are the charges against the adults in the compound?
Now, there you go asking for evidence and proof and all of that good stuff that is supposed to be required to raid a community and take away every single child.
It is chilling that this appears to be a move by the government to raid, confiscate children and remove them to the care of the State and then investigate and try to find enough evidence to support the raid and removal of the children in the first place.
If the government had prior evidence that rape and abuse was occurring, enough so for at least a judge to sign a warrant to raid the place, what and where are the charges against the adults in the compound?
Not only do you not understand the law and due process but you also do not understand how child abuse investigations are conducted.
To put it simply, if a middle school child contacted authorities, the child and family would be interviewed; if there was probable cause for child abuse, the child would be removed from the parents. If possible the child would stay with a relative (ie grandparent, not foster care). Depending upon the severity of the abuse, the parents would be charged with child abuse ( after significant investigation and attorneys for both sides ) or the parents would receive ongoing counseling with visits to the home by the state.
The goal of the state is NOT to remove the child but to bring the family together. As for “those case workers need their jobs”..that is a laugh! these people are sooo overworked that if a case falls through the cracks, these same freepers who denounce them would be in uproar!
Yes it was excessive, buoyed by some mandarin style bureaucrats in the Socialist Services Department of the state.
This could have been done quietly with the investigation of a single complaint , which turned out to be bogus BTW, the original complainant was never found.
Rounding up hundreds of healthy children and their mothers, incarcerating them, and then investigating how many dirty old men there are in that area of Texas who fooled with underaged girls, seems to be a game of someones political advancement, or perhaps part of the liberal vs. libertarian cultural battle of sorts.
I mean statutory rape among teenagers happens frequently , but the young men involved from 14 to 17 years of age who are active with underaged girls are never prosecuted. But the men who are older and who dabble in illegal sex ( rape its called , despite the often eager nature of all participants) need to be hunted down.
This is sort of a "feminism ad adsurdum" approach, involving over 400 children, who must have their birth dates verified, genetic testing to find if they know who their biological fathers are, then all the psychological upset in finding out that your dad WAS a DIRTY OLD MAN WHO IS GOING TO JAIL BECAUSE HE CREATED YOU WHEN YOUR MOM WAS ONLY 15 ?
Seems like a lot of suffering going on to prove a political point of necessary liberal imposed sacrosanct virginity on young girls who want to give it up, whether misdirected or not? If they looked at down own Dallas they would see 14 year old black girls having it done to them on a regular basis, but little or nothing is done about them?
I believe that there will be constitutional law cases going on for years, and meanwhile many children and mothers will be made to feel dirty because of this whole thing.
I do not like it, nor do I like what the State of Texas has done to these families, no matter how different the groups sexual morality is from mine.
I'm reading that it was known that their suspect was in Arizona. Today there was another thread that the call was a false report from someone in Colorado.
I'd be interested in reading about the rest of the abuse and crimes outside of polygamy and being weird.
If you've been alive for the last 45 years or so, you would have developed a natural skeptism of the police first, then hold your judegement until you have evidence against citizens.
Lastly, from your comments, I think you would allow the cops to do a walk through and search of your home just to see if everything is ok. And then charge you with any law violations they may come across. And you can ignore the false call from your neighbor telling the cops what was going on in your house.
“You need DNA to do that and thats what Texas is doing. “
And some little circuit judge is allowing all this to be done. If this gets before a judge more concerned with individual rights and reasonable searches and seizures every thing that’s happed so far could well be condemned and thrown out.
This the heavy hand of government running roughshod over women and children, with no consideration as to individual innocence or guilt.
And what evidence does anyone have of all this inbreeding, fathers with daughters and grandfathers with granddaughters? Is that also from some disgruntled former member such as called in a complaint and then tried to disappear?
A Filipino woman I useda to know (stateside) was a grandmother at 35. Her great-grandmother was still alive. No big deal, she used to tell me and shrug. That’s how we live, she said, big extended families. Happy, religious. Unlike us, I thought at the time, nuclear families of two kids, parents looking forward to a divorce, relatives thousands of miles away.
Call this woman’s customs a Filipino Cult, you pious, sanctimonious Church Ladies all over these threads condemning people you don’t know to hell!
I found out for myself that what you say is true. I had heard so much about how CPS is only out to take away children (especially those not in public school) that when some busy body bleepety-bleep neighbor called on me because my children were outside "unsupervised" during school hours, I was terrified. I had heard and read all sorts of things saying not to let the caseworkers in. I only had one person say to just tell the truth and let the caseworkers in and there wouldn't be a problem. That one person was absolutely right. Not doing so, would have drawn it out. Instead, the caseworker did a quick walk through. She said a parent has a right to educate their children as they wish and she didn't expect the house to be perfect. The case was unfounded and dropped. she told my children to just live their lives and not to worry about the neighbors. But, I was told if I thought it might be a neighbor trying to cause trouble that I should call the hotline, so they can put a note on it.
Ouch!
The old "Everybody does it" defense. I think I'm going to be sick.
Besides, they have to find the parents before they can think about returning them. Any idea how many adults have volunteered to prove their paternity?
You obviously have not read the Old Testament.
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