Posted on 04/28/2008 8:18:23 AM PDT by dead
Thank you.
I shouldn’t leave open the implication that they murdered these ‘rejects’ produced by strict inbreeding.
On another thread, a poster contributed this information about the very short life expectancy of babies born with such genetic defects. One year or less was what was qouted.
With all that this cult has on the table, nothing would surprise me, even that.
I’m turning blue...I’m turning blue....
No! Don’t! We need you!
“Just another form of bleeding the beast, “
Reminds me of something.
With the genetic defects produced by strict inbreeding,
weren’t they “Breeding the Beast”?
If what you alledge were true, then the state wouldn't be in the embarassing position they are finding themselves in today. They are dropping their much publicized case against a member accused of molesting a 16 year old girl.
Why, because the phone call that started this all came from the phone number of a criminal with a history making false reports. The state can not find, nor prove that the girl even exists. The state has forcibly taken 462 children from their families, again without evidence of abuse. And the state's case is crumbling.
Rob Parker, the FLDS spokesman is quoted as saying:
"I think that's just one more piece of evidence that the whole basis on which this raid was premised was unfounded and was inadequately checked out, to the formulation of what basically amounted to an army that went in there and took their children," Parker said.
It appears he may have a point. This is what I've been harping on since this whole fiasco started. Just becaue you do not like or agree with a group, does not give you the authority go waive their Constitutionally stated rights. You MUST follow due process, you MUST have evidence, you MUST allow them to face their accuser and you MUST follow the rules. Sorry, one hearing to determine the fate of 462 individual children is insufficient for the USA. It may fly in the USSR, but this isn't the USSR. We have freedom of religion, and it appears that the Texas state and the CPS have decided that all members of the FLDS faith are unworthy parents, from a single hearing in which the parents were not allowed to appear, testify or president evidence.
Now the courts will meet out justice, and the FLDS will get a huge cash infusion courtesy of the Texas taxpayers. If you want to discourage and get rid of a religous order, don't give them hundreds of Millions of dollars - which is exactly what Texas is going to end up doing. All because of an emotional knee-jerk reaction by a few individuals that thought a witch-hunt needed a resurgance.
Right, right, right.
And if what you say is true, and there were no other complaints to the CPS ,other than the fake one, and the women who escaped the FLDS are all lying, and the evidence the CPS gave the LE is all fake, and none of the underage girls are now, or were ever pregnant, and if the FBI doesn’t have a case with transportation of minors across state lines without consent, and the State Welfare Department doesn’t have any evidence and lied to the CPS about the abuse they saw,
Then I will come back and apologize to you.
In the meantime, you keep listening to the FLDS rep, who is part of the problem, and would lie to protect the FLDS, because that is part of their religion.
Here's the rub. You and I can chose to join, or not to join a cult. That is our choice, and in this country, this is our Constitutionally protected RIGHT.
The Gov't grants you no choice, can determine every aspect of your life. The gov't decides what you will, and will not do. Goverment, in the best possible case, is a tolerable evil. Goverments produce no goods, they take income from those who produce and distribute to those who do not produce. Governments can not give you anything you do not already have, but it can certainly take things away from you. Goverments have a military, to protect the goverment. Does this clarify anything for you? Feel free to look at any period in human history concerning nations and goverments, and feel free to decide for yourself.
Religions are typically passive, join or do not join. These include Buddist, Christian, Wiccan, Hindu and many others. Islam is the predominant militant religion that will give you the choice of join or be a 2nd class citizen. Goverments are invasive, resist and you will be killed, imprisoned or subdued. When we see the Gov't even coming close to 'the line', we should question and raise the alarm. For once you cede a right to the goverment, you have lost that right until a revolution and loss of life can give back what was taken. Again, history is full of cases illustrating this point.
Those who are questioning the state and CPS activities are not necessarily defending the FLDS. I frankly find the FLDS most objectionable. Howver, I am not willing to sacrifice my rights, so that the state can trample the FLDS. Because if the state and CPS can trample rights to get the FLDS, they will do the same thing to the next person that comes along. Maybe you will find yourself in the next group that needs 'correcting'. Again, history is a great teacher.
You and I can. Those people born and bred into that cult can't. The armed guard tower was there for a reason. Ex cult members fear for their lives. Some have disappeared.
The Gov't flds cult conttols those women and children and they no choice, the cult determines every aspect of their lives. The gov't flds cult decides what those women and children will, and will not do.
Goverments flds cult produce no goods, they take income from those who produce and distribute to those who do not produce, as in bleeding the beast and bragging about it.
Spare me the whining about the government when the cult you are defending is doing far worse to the people under it's control.
So why are you willing to sacrifice the rights of the women and children in that cult? Their Constitutional rights have been stripped away by the men in that cult. If the government has no right to take away anyone's Constitutional rights, why do the cult leaders? Why are they protected and not the women and children? Slavery is unConstitutional last I heard.
By demanding that the government keep it's hands off in cases of blatant abuse and illegal activity, you are consigning those women and children to a lifetime of abuse and sexual slavery to a bunch of old perverts. The *state* is not trampling the rights of the cult members involved in illegal activity any more than they trample the rights of any other law breaker.
Nowhere in the Constitution does one have the right to break the law and get away with it. If you choose to break the law, expect the government to step in and stop it. It's necessary for maintaining an orderly society.
If the government is hogtied as so many cult defenders wish it to be, then the end result will be vigilante justice and anarchy, as people take the law into their own hands.
Is that really preferable? If the government has on control over lawbreakers, then it has no control over vigilantes either.
That is for the courts, not you nor I, to decide. And that is the crux of the matter.
No one who knows how this group works, will defend the actions of the men and leaders of this group. However, you, the state of Texas and the CPS have ASSUMED guilt before any trial has taken place. The warrant for the arrest of the man who allegedly 'raped' a non-existent 16 year old girl has been dropped. The basis for the entire raid was due to a bogus phone call.
Because of the bogus Search Warrant (issued on the bogus phone call) Texas has once again demonstrated itself incapable of performing due diligence and exercising judgment beyond the 8th grade level.
The Waco slaughter could have been avoided by arresting the culprit on his many visits to town. But, in the wisdom that is now history, Texas instead chose an armed invasion resulting in many unnecessary deaths. It is also curious to bring up the point that since the surviving cult members set fire and killed themselves - not ONE case has been made against any of the other surviving cult members. Not a single case ever made it to trial. No case implies no crimes, no crimes means that due to stupid decisions, many policemen and 'innocent' cult members were murdered by the state.
There were allegations that 'children were abused', then as well. But, isn't it curious that here after many years, not a single case of child abuse has been brought forward. Consider, all you have to do is utter the words "Child Abuse" and evidence, due process and Constitutional rights no longer apply. This is a right that the state has claimed, and I find no mention of this right in our Constitution.
In the case of the FLDS, we again have accusations of child abuse, a bogus search warrant issued because the police were incompetent to the point of being disbanded. It is a very easy, very quick and very obvious thing to check a phone record and see where a phone call originated. However, in the days between the call and the raid; Law Enforcement Officer Forrest Gump couldn't seem to make this connection. I submit that a random board compromised of 5th graders would consider this option. Now lets look at the obvious. If I issue a search warrant and that warrant's basis is found to be bogus, the Search Warrant is bogus. If I say in a Search Warrant that you are making drugs, and no drug paraphernalia or materials are found; anything else that is discovered by exercising the Search Warrant is inadmissible.
So, history repeats itself. Texas once again bumbles a task that a team of 5th graders should be able to work out. And while bumbling the task, they make whatever other evidence that may exist, inadmissible in court.
Does this make sense to you yet? Because they bumbled the original Search Warrant, they could have a human meat processing plant and cooking babies for breakfast. Any evidence of this would be inadmissible in court. The magnitude of the screw ups boggles the imagination - and the month long incarceration of children over the age of 2 by the state, which STILL hasn't produced evidence on every single child's welfare, doesn't bode well either.
By demanding that the government keep it's hands off in cases of blatant abuse and illegal activity, you are consigning those women and children to a lifetime of abuse and sexual slavery to a bunch of old perverts.
No, I have never said that we would NEVER go in. I am saying that we gather information bit by bit, build a legitimate case, then go after them. The state of Utah didn't descend upon Warren Jeffs, issue a bogus Search Warrant and then take every child from it's mother in a 1 day trial. Warren Jeffs got his day in court, and justice was served. As such, Warren Jeffs has no option to have his case dismissed by reason of a miscarriage of justice. The state gathered evidence in a legitimate manner, and things worked out as they should have. There was no issue of excessive force, due process or violation of basic Constitutional rights.
And again, let the courts decide this. I'm not a FLDS member, I was not there, I have no insight into how life really functions inside the compound, and neither do you.
When you rush things, when you bypass due process, when you take children away without provocation, and do not challenge the state in these activities; the state will assume these new found practices as standard operating procedure.
Just think, all one has to do is make a bogus police report, and you automatically lose custody of your children for as long as the state decides they need to investigate. You are prohibited from talking to your 2 year old son/daughter, you have no idea where they have been taken, and when/if you will ever see them again. You will be given no opportunity to appear at the CPS custody meeting, no evidence will be presented to you, so you have no chance to prove your innocence. Whats more, the person responsible for making the determination as to whether you are competent to raise your child is not an elected official, nor an appointed official. You have no recourse in this matter, and any criticism of this system will result CPS taking longer to gather information. This is the scenario you are supporting - and it has no place in the USA.
My first foster child (5 years old) was removed from her family with her two half-siblings when her 18 month old brother was found to have a many day old, untreated spiral compound fracture-— the Dr. took one look at it, pitched a fit, called security and CPS and the kids were out of there in less than an hour.
Why where the girls pulled? Only one child was injured you’d say....
However, within having her for a month, it because apparent that she was catching hell from step dad-— her having belt marks on her face from a beating (per baby sitter coming forward), they having fled two states after an ER visit where she had a knife wound and another where neighbors witnessed step dad pulling her off her bike by her harm to hit her so hard she looked like a rag doll in the wind.
Then there was the day driving home in the rain in traffic, after our Saturday McD’s trip when she got real quiet, I asked her what she was thinking about and she started talking about having to look at “Daddy Mike’s pee pee”. I dang near wrecked the car. And heck no, she got no coaching from me!
However, at the time, the only injured child was her brother (an ‘accident’—— but no one could even say when the twisting break through the skin happened). They had a history if fleeing the law (unknown at the time). So if they had removed just the injured child, they would have fled with the girls.
BTW, they DID flee the law, leaving behind all 3 kids-— later adopted out or claimed by relatives.
Bottom line, you pull all kids. IF the FLDS group was like a usual subdivision with clearly marked individual families, their homes, their kids, their yards etc....then yes, you only remove the kids in one house. But still, ALL the kids in a family. Because you don’t know.
However, in a setting where there are few if any clear lines of families, children assigned to caregivers, mothers not able to ID kids, one address, group shared buildings and dorms, community dining etc.... you have to treat it as one very large family.
You assume the worst and hope for the best.
The CPS folks did the right thing.
I submit that they are totally different cases. Here we have 462 children, from numerous families, with NO evidence and even the CPS was forced to admit that over 130 of the children are under no threat of abuse.
The case you mentioned was abuse within a single family, with a victim, with medical evidence and material witnesses. In the case of the FLDS all of the children were 'tried' without evidence, witnesses or intent having to be proved. All families were assumed guilty - and the only element we have linking these families is that they all attend the same church.
Simply stated, you cannot compare a single episode which is heinous; to an entire community of people. This would be comparable if everyone who attends the same church as your foster child's church also had their children taken for them for a period of 4 weeks.
Then there is the little matter of 2+ yr hold children taken from their parents and coached for 4 weeks by a DA. If this DA acts anything like the Duke lacrosse Team DA, or the District At tourneys back in the Childcare witch-hunt in the early 90's - the children will all report being sexually abused, offered as sacrifices to Satan, having their heads cut off with swords and having their brains eaten by their parents. This is the type of testimony that was accepted during the Daycare trials - the children were told by the DA that if they didn't tell the stories the DA wanted to hear; they would never see their parents again.
Do you have any doubt as to what the children are being coached to say? Prisoners of War are often broken in a matter of days, or a week. The CPS has had 2-15 yr old children all to themselves for close to a month now.
In my work situation, we have CPS crisis kids all the time. First off, coaching? No, no, and hell no! Getting them to tell their story (which is 99% of dealing with the trauma) writing it down etc is the goal. I greatly admire those who work one on one with these kids, and I really take deep umbrage with the attitude that they’re ‘bad guys’ manipulating hurt kids.
Secondly, if there is anything that even remotely smacks of abuse, kids are pulled-— All of them. The FLDS site had enough visual evidence, plus enough taken from interviews and files to justify pulling every child. Again, they are the heros for these kids when the bio-units that birthed them failed them.
As you yourself just posted, 130 were of no threat of abuse, but you often don’t have the luxury of sorting through who is and who isn’t at risk until later. Imagine 2 from this group of 5, 3 from this group of 4, 1 from 2 and so forth. The lines are not clear, never are. And to put it bluntly, like my fosters parents, these folks would have probably vanished in the wind if the majority of the kids hadn’t been taken (granted, my opinion and experience).
I see my story as perfect parallel to the FLDS case, simply because you have 3 kids...clearly abused, hidden abused and not abused. 3 kids or 403...same situation. Exactly the same.
Lastly, again, IF the FLDS had clear family lines, houses, mailboxes, kids who could point to “That’s my Mom Thats’ my Dad” etc then CPS could have easily have sorted through the at risk and OK kids.
Instead you have a commune...with community dining, one mailbox, dormlike living quarters etc. A mass muddle of blurred lines, responsibilies, care givers and kids who are not clear on who they belong to....There is no other way to do what they did than what they did.
Again, my story is a perfect parallel and Texas did it right by these kids. Anything else is trying to put lipstick on this pig of horrifically bad parenting.
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