US Veteran Removes His Kosovo Medal

Republican Riot ^ | May 6, 2008 | Julia Gorin

[old-and-old]

Bokababe,
I am aware of Binder and Nora thanks to this:
http://www.offoffoff.com/film/2002/yugoslavia.php3
“David Binder, former Yugoslavia correspondent for the New York Times, professes a lifelong affection for the Serbs and was, like several others quoted in the film, a well-received speaker at the 9th Serbian Unity Congress. He illustrated his lifelong affection in a letter to the New York Review of Books, referring to war-crimes kingpin Gen. Ratko Mladic as “a superb professional.” This goes beyond Handke’s sympathy with the Serbian common man and directly embraces its most notorious killers. “

“Nora Beloff, with 24 screen appearances and a dedication at the end, is the picture’s patron saint. Formerly a correspondent for the London Observer, she became a darling of the Serbs when she wrote a slim out-of-print tract which gave the film its name. Her advocacy earned her the epitaph “a friend of the Serbs” from the Serbian Unity Congress when she died in 1997.”

I do not listen to opinions, facts matter. If I see that only 1 rape occurred that year—as verified by researchers, in a 1.5 million population—and everyone is screaming “Albanians are raping our women, let’s take their rights” right after Kosovo got their new status I smell a rat. And you do too regardless of politics. In fact, crime in Kosovo was lower than in all Yu. Those are statistics.

Even Serbianna’s own propagandists, Carl Savich, states that 10 rapes occurred between 1982-1984. Assuming his numbers are right, while any rape is disgusting, we have to keep in mind that people are people, and some common criminals do horrible things. 10 rapes in 3 years is hardly an epidemic. Of course we do not know how many rapes Serbs committed on Albanians, averaged to population size. For the year Sells analyses, Serbs killed 3 K-Albs, and K-Albs killed 2 Serbs. Is that bad considering Serbs were less than 25%? Not necessarily. Depends on why they pulled the trigger. Maybe they were based on land disputes or “why is your chicken in my yard.”

Newspapers lie and they are not accountable to much. Scholarly papers and books by scholars are different as their stats are always questioned. Love them or hate them, they are scholars and others love to take them down in scholarly articles.

Binder mentions rape stories, without saying how many happened. This reminds me of “Shark attacks” in the summer...

[old-and-old]

you’re missing my point entirely: a few people here and there do not alter the demographics. Some K-Albs might move to Albania and other move to Kosovo, and both sides do anything to move to Germany but what is there in Kosovo for 99.999% of Albanians? NOTHING.

Albanians apparently have hit Greece, Italy, England and USA. Kosovo is much poorer than Albania now, no reason for them to hit in huge numbers. It appears that Albania is almost catching Serbia, even though they have not started yet. They are just building roads so far and electricity is scarce. Their best asset, the 200 plus mile coastline is not organized or developed at all.

Albania will surpass Serbia economically very soon in my opinion, if they do the right thing. The right thing is to ask EU on what to do.

[old-and-old]

>> Ask the majority of them for their papers and you will recieve the answer they don't have them. Why? They crossed the border.

I just noticed this. You should be aware that http://www.google.com/search?q=serbs+%22stripped+of+identity+papers%22&hl=en&filter=0 most people were stripped of their identity papers--and cash from Serb soldiers before being thrown out of Kosovo.

It just happened to coincide with the Radical Party's plan to expel the "illegals," the immigrants in other countries, and those who cannot prove citizenship. "Although the guerrillas' central role at the border was awkward for the German NATO troops, who are supposed to be protecting both Kosovar Albanians and Serbs, the Germans acknowledged that the rebels made the re-entry of the refugees, most of whom were stripped of all identity papers by the Serbs, efficient and trouble-free, for now" http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9807E2DD1E38F935A25755C0A96F958260

"KERRY O'BRIEN: How complex and painful is it going to be facilitating the return of all those hundreds of thousands of refugees from Albania and Macedonia back into Kosovo, particularly since so many of them were stripped of identity papers?
DAME PAULINE NEVILLE-JONES: Well, that's another reason, of course, for not allowing the Serbs to have the reality of control of the borders at the moment, because one would have no guarantee that they would allow people who had a genuine claim back." http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s28556.htm

this is from an Albanian site but the picture does not seem doctored:

"British Army Intelligence warrant officer Andrew Kevill, from Manchester, sifts through hundreds of Albanian passports and identity cards which were found dumped on a site currently used by Headquarters 4 Armoured Brigade. It is believed that these documents may have been confiscated from Albanian Kosovars now residing in refugee camps in Macedonia." "The Albanian prime minister appealed today to his countrymen to take in the refugees, most of whom were carrying their only possessions by hand.
People forced across the border are being stripped of identity papers, even their car license plates, in an apparent effort to make it impossible for them to return.
''It's almost as if their identities are being canceled out,'' NATO spokesman Jamie Shea said today at a news briefing in Brussels, Belgium"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso112.htm

[Bokababe]

And the site that you just directed me to is an Albanian propagandist site, designed to destroy the reputation of anyone who questions the “poor Kosovar” narrative. Open your mouth and question it and they destroy you.

How you found this so easily makes me think that either you have been brainwashed or you are an Albanian propagandist yourself.

I read lots of sources, some that question what I think and challenge my thinking, but I know bull when I see it!

[Bokababe]

In addition to this article on "A US Veteran who Removed His Kosovo Medals", there is also the Kosovo Peacekeeper who Became a Voice for Persecuted Christians in Kosovo

[ma bell]

You also miss the point... this nothaving papers goes waaaay back to the 70s, 80s and 90s...even under the later years of Tito when he was in his demise.

[FormerLib]

You said, Albanians are “illegal immigrants.” Prove it. You can’t because it isn’t true.

Here's one on our own Free Republic. Took me about 20 seconds to pull up that one! LOL!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976667/posts

[FormerLib]

Albania will surpass Serbia economically very soon in my opinion, if they do the right thing.

I love how you prove your know nothing, nothing about the Balkans every time you post anything. LOL!

[Honorary Serb]

Just like Haynes, I—a former Lutheran—became an Orthodox Christian as the result of my contact and eventual friendship with a Serbian community. I agree with Haynes that even Western Orthodox Christians (espeically OCA and Antiochian) need to become more aware of the REAL situation in the Serbian homeland, and of persecuted Christians elsewhere (e.g., Iraq) as well.

Many conservative Lutheran leaders have become pro-Serb over the years, but the great body of Lutherans and other Western Christians also need a lot of education on this, as well as an infusion of love from the Most Holy Spirit.

[old-and-old]

Look,
they are people who even question that Srebrenica happened. Other say that KLA didn’t touch civilians at all, other say that NATO caused the civilians to flee, others say that CIA bombed the WTC towers. In this thread there is one who refuses to believe that Serbs are even capable of doing bad things.

We’re talking about generally accepted facts. Everyone has the right to comment, when Serbs say that if NATO had not intervened, why shouldn’t others mention Bosnia where NATO did NOT intervene? We don’t have a crystal ball, but try to predict from past behaviour.

[old-and-old]

Ma,
I can’t chase every rumor. You show me when did the Albanians move to Kosovo between WWI and 80’s in such large numbers that they could not hold Government jobs because they were “illegals.”

[old-and-old]

sorry but you you have to do better than a link to an editorial. Albanians were some 75% in 1912 when Serbia took Kosovo, and no one denies that they have a much higher birthrate.

Why did Vaso Cubrilovic say that colonization has failed and that Albanians cannot be assimilated:

in the “Expulsion of Albanians-Memorandum”
“The Albanians cannot be dispelled by means of gradual colonization alone.”
and suggested:
“The refusal to recognize the old land deeds,...
requisitioning of all state and communal pastures,...
the withdrawal of permits to exercise a profession, dismissal from the state, private and communal offices, etc., will hasten the process of their removal...”

“The result has been negative, as evident from the statistics of the eighteen districts which make up the Albanian triangle. ****These figures show that the natural growth of the Albanian population in these regions is still greater than the total increase in our population from both natural growth and new settlers (from 1921 to 1931, the Albanian population increased by 68,060, while the Serbs showed an increase of 58,745, i.e. a difference of 9,315 in favour of the Albanians). Taking into account the intractable character of the Albanians, the pronounced increase in their numbers and the ever-increasing difficulties of colonization will eventually put in question even those few successes we have achieved in our colonization from 1918 onwards.****”

“Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should distribute weapons to our colonists, as need be. The old form of Chetnik action should be organized and secretly assisted.

In particular, a mass migration of Montenegrins should be launched from the mountain pastures in order to create a large-scale conflict with the Albanians in Metohija. This conflict should be prepared and encouraged by people we can trust. “ (This happened in WWII by the way)

In 1944 he comes back with: “The second important question to be answered is which regions should be cleansed of minorities first. I have already stressed that our main consideration is not how many people we expel, but which regions to expel them from. Minorities scattered about as individual families and small communities pose no danger to us. The greatest threat is from large blocks of minorities in border regions of strategic and economic importance. “

Read FormerLib, but then you might find something you do not like. if you’re from Montenegro, Cubrilovic insults you, and that you need to breed with a Serb to make “good” children:

“The Montenegrins will prove to be excellent instruments to overcome the Albanians since they are akin to them in mentality and temperament. They must be settled initially in the regions north of the Shar mountains. Along with them, however, people from Lican, Krajšnica, Serbia, Cacak, Užice and Toplica should be brought in as colonists as well. This is necessary in order to create improved working habits and organization among the Montenegrins, and to break down the nomadic group mentality, the spirit of collectivity which characterizes the highlanders, by mixing and by intermarriage with people from various Dinaric regions. In this way, a new type of Montenegrin can be created with a less local and more broad-minded, Serbian outlook.”

[Bokababe]

The events in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo were so politically contrived and politically charged, that it is hard to get close enough to any of the major events in those wars to look at them objectively without being called names for asking questions.

To fight the Serb position on issues is one thing, to try and destroy the careers and reputations of anyone who asks relevant questions like Beloff, Binder, and others did, (based on their long careers studying the Balkan neighborhood) is another thing. It is obvious that these detractors are trying to bully and intimidate others into swallowing their version of events, lest they get the same hack job done on them, too.

Frankly, those who try to slime people like Beloff and Binder in the way they attempted to in that disgusting site, are simply pond-scum.

[old-and-old]

that was a movie review site. I have no connection with them, I just pointed out their summary. As far as being despicable: outright lying or misleading people in the bulletin board, and most importantly trying to deny (or minimize by saying “all sides are guilty”) the horrible things that happened is much worst than questioning Binder or whoever.

These events have been analyzed over and over again in books and papers for about 10 years. Binder and Beloff are JUST two people who have opinions who happened to agree with the Serb view and are quoted time and time again. Opinions are quickly discarded to make room for the facts. People are able to see what happened from Ottoman invasion or 1878 till now in the region and piece it together.

Are all people who disagree with Serbs stupid or in a conspiracy against Serbia? Serbia is a nothing in the world. EU can cut their aid and Serbia will have to stop. Do you realize that Serbia for the most part did not pay it’s soldiers in Kosovo, they “got paid” by looting, money, jewelry, TV sets and anything of value from K-Albanians? Their inflation was in Zimbabwe territory during the war.

Lying has always ticked me off. The one masked as being impartial is much worst. Editing can do wonders, just ask Michael Moore.

[Bokababe]

You know, you can just keep throwing as much garbage as you want into this argument — unverified— at Serbs, hoping that some of it will stick with the less informed here. You haven’t been around long enough to know that Freepers aren’t stupid and aren’t easy marks.

Whatever, you or I say, the fact remains that at least three American military men who were in Kosovo and who put their lives on the line (including ma bell who is here arguing with you), reject your view of events and your position. And at least two of these men— Theodore and D. Hunter Haynes — completely changed the direction of their lives because of their experience in Kosovo in support of Serb Christians, and that speaks volumes. Their sacrifices say far more than any “mouthpiece with a keyboard” for any side can.

[FormerLib]

You ask for proof and got it and then promptly ignored it.

Why am I not surprised, Bonly-boy.

[FormerLib]

You haven’t been around long enough to know that Freepers aren’t stupid and aren’t easy marks.

Nah, he's been around here plenty, only the screen name is new.

[old-and-old]

I have not posted a lie. On the other hand I have heard that "Albanians are criminals" and "illegal aliens" and "Islamic extremists" who "can't live in a state" and that they should live with the civilized Serbs, till the soften up.

I apologize to Zimbabwe:
"The former Yugoslavia has suffered a history of unstable money. In the period 1971-91, the average annual inflation rate was 69 percent, with hyperinflation of more than 50 percent per month in 1989 and again in 1991-92. According to many observers, hyperinflation was set off in 1991, as Slobodan Milosevic on December 28, 1990, ordered the National Bank of Yugoslavia to grant $1.8 billion in unauthorized credits to Serbian-owned enterprises. By January 1994 the rump Yugoslavia was suffering from a monthly inflation rate of 313 million percent, breaking the world records set by Weimar Germany and post-World War II Hungary. At present, the Yugoslav dinar is once again falling like a stone, and Montenegro, Serbia's junior partner in the rump Yugoslavia, is threatening to distance itself from the plague of hyperinflation by issuing its own money. "
from The WorldBank http://www.worldbank.org/html/prddr/trans/janfeb97/art5.htm

as for the rest you may Google to see Serb veterans demanding pay and pensions owed to them. As far as looting goes, Google is your friend as well. You may also find that every other house was burned by Serb soldiers.

As for Christians, despite your hysteria, it turns out that they are many Christians in Kosovo, all the Albanian ones and many missionaries who are spreading the word the right way. As the letter I posted suggests that Artemije threatened excommunication for any Serb who stepped in an evangelical church, that evangelicals aren't welcome in Serbia, and that the Serbs have burned quite a few Catholic Churches. So much for the "Serbs are Christians so side with us" message. We also found out that the Albanians had not burned churches before what the Serbs did in 1998-99 (Among other things: "Crosses carved into the ruins of Albanian homes bombed and burned during the war reinforced the perception that Serb paramilitaries carried out their atrocities with the blessing of the Church. ")

As far as Albanians "being terrorists": "The bishop’s claim that an independent Kosovo would become an Al Qaeda base also strikes those of us here on the ground as absurd. Kosovar Albanians are by and large more pro-American than Americans themselves. The stars and stripes flies side by side with the Albanian two-headed eagle all across Kosovo. This past year, thousands of local people gathered in cities, towns and villages on the Fourth of July to share in America’s joy then again on the 11th of September to share in America’s mourning. A popular saying here is, “God in heaven; America on earth!” "

It also turns out that "Albanian extremists" are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and will be there until US soldiers leave. They are not thousands of them, but then it is a poor and small country. http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/2007-06-15-voa2.cfm

Who to believe?

Stop trying to hide behind Christianity to mask your true territorial intentions. You also seem to have have a serious problem with non-Orthodox Christians: "Local pastors remember that when Serbia ruled here, evangelicals were labeled a “satanic cult” However, for obvious reasons, Serb-Orthodox is the last religion Albanians who make 90% of the population will take.
Bush Sr, Bush Jr, Clinton, Bob Dole, McCain, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell, Jewish leaders in Congress, 90+% of EU and most of US public figures support Kosovo as an independent state. They are not all bought by "narco-mafia," "anti-Christians," "Islamic appeasers" or stupid, maybe the truth is different from what you suggest.

These are not my words, I am merely posting them here. Do not attack me, the Missionaries letter was signed by well over a dozen Christians and Christian organizations in Kosovo.

[old-and-old]

how is that proof? It’s a statement made by an anonymous person. It carries the same value as your word or mine, which isn’t much for “proof.”

This mass-migration has to have been documented somehow, just as the colonization of Kosovo with Serb settlers and colonization of Tibet with Han Chinese is /was. 200,000 people is one huge movement, many papers and books would have been written about it. So either prove it, or don’t mislead people.

>> Bonly-boy

whatever that may mean.

[FormerLib]

I don’t waste my time on Jihadist cheerleaders or the intellectually dishonest, Bonly-boy, you know that.