Posted on 05/15/2008 7:37:59 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy
AUSTIN - Lawyers for the state conceded in court today that the woman from the polygamist sect who gave birth this week while in the state's custody is not a minor and said she is free to return to her home in West Texas or remain with her three children -- including the newborn -- under protective care.
I can’t imagine anything more horrible than the State trying to separate a newborn from its mother but they sure tried. The only reason it did not happen is that the father got an injunction to prevent it.
The truth about this case probably came to light only because this woman notified the news about her plight.
Wrong in just this one case? Or do you mean all cases? I think I will wait & see but still polygamy is illegal & I think that men involved & mothers who let their daughters be child brides & sister wives have much explaining to do. I want to hear them justify it.
I don't think so. That said though...there is always areas to improvement . Unless there is good reason not to, I would like to see more women with children shelters be provided. Not all get the breaks that this group has received. I would like to see all mothers that run into trouble get to stay with their little one's if possible.
The title is a little confusing. The kids are still wards of the state.
Yes I know & what a mess this is. I really want to hear how polygamy is going to be justified in court, don’t you?
If she’s the “first’ wife this one won’t be so hard. There are going to be some real “head scratchers” coming up though. As you say “what a mess”
"They said I looked like I was under 18," she said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24604291/
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Send treats to the troops...
Great because you did it!
www.AnySoldier.com
“The State was wrong in this case. I wonder what else they are wrong about.”
Yup.
McMartin Preschool anyone?
“I would like to see all mothers that run into trouble get to stay with their little one’s if possible.”
Yep. The mothers are guilty of being ignorant and stupid. I didn’t think you could take children away from mothers for that reason. If they had to round up someone, they should have rounded up the men who are guilty of abusing underage girls if they have proof and due process has been followed.
If she wishes to return to the group, so be it. If she wishes to live in the outside world, so be it.
But the state has absolutely no grounds for holding her or her baby against her will in the absence of proved child abuse.
What others in that sect are doing has no bearing on her rights.
If she is guilty of polygamy, prosecute her for that. But that alone is no reason to hold her in what amounts to imprisonment.
It’s confusing but I’m just glad the mom got to keep her baby. However, if the state has its way, the baby when it’s 12 months will be separated from the mother because the state thinks 12 months is long enough for her to nurse. I guess she is one of the lucky ones because her other children must be under 5. When they turn 5, though, off they go to be dumped in a foster home along with the other poor little rejected kids. This woman will have to face that when the time comes but for now she has her baby to hold close and suckle.
That might lead to more non-conformists and the collapse of the State.
“But the state has absolutely no grounds for holding her or her baby against her will in the absence of proved child abuse.”
Stop it; you’re making sense; can’t have that here; but thanks anyway.
I have been blown away by people defending what TX CPS has done.
I’ve heard people speculate that, en masse, the entire group refused to give any proof to the State of Texas as to the names, ages, parentage, etc of the kids. So, the State took ‘em all out.
Again, if someone mistreated a child, I’m in favor of a public hanging. However, let’s have a proper trial first, okay? What happened to due process?
Ignorant and stupid? . The one’s with the power are neither IMO. The others...well I would prefer to try to help them instead of calling them names.
I think I was wrong about them waiting ‘til the kids were 5 to take them away. I think they take them away when the kids are 12 months. No exceptions.
It's a damned, good think Mike Rivero is no longer posting on FR ... I think I'd be tempted to do something really drastic.
This entire LDS takeover has bothered me since shortly after I found out about the phone call from someone that couldn't be found. Weird or not, the state came in and invaded a ton of people and thoroughly screwed up their lives because someone said so.
Between Wall Street and Congress, our entire nation has been invaded and a whole buncha' tons of people have been thoroughly screwed up ... just because someone says so.
OK ... I'll go take my meds now.
“Dan Jessop, who sought the hearing in Austin on behalf of his wife, Louisa, and their three children, said he viewed the hearing as at least a partial victory. He said he is relieved that his children are being kept together with their mother, and he vowed to continue to seek the full reunification of their family. “
I take from this quote that the mother, at least, has been reunited with her other children, too?
I ask, because last I heard, her other children were spread all over TX.
the parents will all get their day in court if they want it. This group is well lawyered up. Sadly there are many single cases where a mom or dad doesn't have all this media attention and financial support.
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It is not the LDS....It is the FLDS! You don't want to make that mistake on these threads.
“I take from this quote that the mother, at least, has been reunited with her other children, too?”
At first, I thought that, too, but then I remembered that CPS took away the kids that were 12 months and older. I don’t know. I’m just glad she got to keep her baby so she can nurse which is healthy for mom and baby.
It isn’t a polygamy issue. It’s about the kids. CPS must have some really good bases of concern since the judge kept the kids in state custody. Actually I hope it goes well in the future for this couple. They are young and probably have the best chance of understanding what is acceptable with children and what isn’t.
I feel your pain. I don’t know who Mike Rivero is and probably don’t want to know. It’s FLDS, by the way, not LDS, but I have heard the same mistake recently on FOX News. Lord have mercy on us all.
If a house is on fire...you need to get people to safety before trying to figure out who started it.
That statement is absolutely correct......but only as far as it goes.
You should have added the caveat that the agency involved should have the good sense to determine whether the house is on fire or it is a false alarm.
Lets say that I pass by your house. The sun is reflecting in the windows so that it appears to be on fire. I call 911.
The fire department screams on the scene, chops a hole in your roof, pumps in 10,000 gallons of water, breaks down all doors, turns everything upside down and inside out looking for a “victim”, declares the house to be unsafe (of course it is after they ruined it) thus making it against the law for you to return to it..................and six months later tells you that your house was not on fire and you can go back in the house.
This is essentially what the state of TX is doing to these families. By the time all of this brute force is over, these families will be emotionally wrecked just as the house was in my fictional illustration.
Ah, but you say they already had problems.
They did not know they had problems. They were happy in their own way. Who are we to say “You are not happy and I am going to change that!”?
If they are going to prosecute for polygamy, so be it. But the children should not be separated from their mothers, put in foster homes, persons held in detention without trial, etc.
All on the basis of a crank phone call.
Well go-llee, you don’t say, the state was wrong about her age? And they told her to either live under their supervision, or leave without her children? Wow, who’d have thought that would happen.
I live in Fresno and this is true all over the U.S. - that there are older guys running around having sex with a pile of teenage girls and babies are being born or aborted. I guess technically that’s not polygamy but everyone knows it’s wrong. I guess it’s not against the law but everyone knows it’s wrong. Why did the authorities go after these poor slobs with such a vengeance? Like all of a sudden they care about the children? Something is horribly wrong with this picture. You can’t throw the Constitution out the window just because you don’t like someone’s life style. No, I don’t make excuses for the creepy men in FLDS who are having sex with little girls. It’s disgusting, wrong, and against the law. But you can’t just bust into their homes, rip their kids away from their mothers, and dump the kids in foster homes - all because of a false report. Not every FLDS woman is guilty; and not every FLDS man is guilty; and for sure the kids did nothing wrong. There was no due process.
Have you ever been wrong about anything? (I have). Does that make you or I suspect on everything we do? You should be applauding them for admitting they were wrong.
susie
The only issue however with CPS is child safety. If each family had been monogamous it would not have made a difference. CPS removes kids from single home environments that they consider dangerous too. We need to stay focused IMO. It's about the kids.
And, please explain (I’ve asked you this before) how the state could investigate the case and get evidence to charge the men without taking the kids into custody, especially when at least many of the women were lying. I don’t expect you to answer, but I’ll keep asking as long as you keep wondering why the men weren’t rounded up.
susie
You're correct, of course ... FLDS.
And just after I posted that I read this.
Aaaarrrrggghhhh !!!!
I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve been wrong; I’d be rich! Yes, I am thrilled CPS admitted they were wrong in this case.
Ha! Thanks for the laugh.
The old saying two wrongs don’t make a right..ya know? This FDLS problem in Texas needs to be addressed. Then I agree, we need to clean the rest of the house and come down on PP, schools and hospitals that do not report under age pregnancies. Parents have also got to be held accountable. I don’t know about you but I’m tired of supporting other peoples kids too.
How long did that take? Three weeks? Unbelievable.
Let me get this straight. If someone is happy marrying their underage daughters into polygamous *spriritual unions* this is ok with you? Luckily, it’s not ok with the State of TX.
I’m going to give you a break and assume you haven’t been keeping up with these threads, and here’s a head’s up. This is not about polygamy. This is about adult men having sex with underage girls. It’s called statutory rape, and it’s illegal.
susie
Have you called CPS about these cases of underage girls having sex with adult men? If not, why not for heaven’s sake?!
susie
Yeah, me too. Unfortunately no one wants to pay me for being wrong!
susie
I do wish they would seriously start prosecuting statutory rape. I suspect the problem is that the girls aren’t telling who the baby daddies are, and it would take incredible manpower and $$$ to pursue these cases. However, I think it would save $$$ and untold misery in the long run if they would.
susie
that is irrelevant don't ya know knarf?
/sarc
Assume that after wrecking the house, the fire department puts you and your family in jail because you set it on fire.
Six months later, after your “day in court” that never should have been necessary to begin with, you are declared not guilty and are allowed to return to your ruined home.
My example is silly?
Don't blame me. You chose the example of a fire and a speedy “rescue”.
All well and good, unless you are dealing with government run amuck.
By the way, you said that CPS “must have a good reason”.
Never assume that there is a good reason unless you know what that reason is. So far, only suspicions, not reasons.
Most of the child protective agencies are run by idiots. I don't know why. It should not be that way. But one constantly reads of agencies that either seize a child for the most trivial reason or ignore the most flagrant evidence of child abuse and allow a child to die needlessly. Whether it is training or the fact that those agencies seem to have immunity from the legal restraints under which other agencies must operate, I have no idea.
But if you read enough, you will see horror story after horror story. I believe this to be another horror story of a government agency out of control.
“And, please explain (I’ve asked you this before) how the state could investigate the case and get evidence to charge the men without taking the kids into custody, especially when at least many of the women were lying.”
That is the state’s problem. They can’t break constitutional law because they have a hunch. You can’t deprive people of their constitutional rights. Constitutional rights trump everything; otherwise, tear it up and none of us have any rights.
If this is allowed to stand, none of us are safe in our homes because someone may make a false report about us and katy bar the door!
Remember, this whole mess got started with a false report. You can’t just lump an entire community into one big pot and condemn them all over a false report. As I recall, there was one supposed teenage girl (the hoax) who accused one FLDS man of abusing her. Now, why didn’t they look for that one man and leave everyone else alone?
I don’t like the way Jehovah’s Witnesses raise their kids and I don’t like the way Christian Scientists raise their kids - you know withholding of blood transufions and medical care. Kids have died, you know. Suppose we go round up all the children born in the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists cults - we will do it “for the children”.
I’m scared to live in a country where the authorities have this much power.
It’s a very slippery slope.
I don’t think the slope is nearly as slippery as you make it out to be. And it will remain to be seen if their Constitutional rights were violated (I don’t think they were). So, are you always against removing children from apparent abuse situations?
susie
adults can and do refuse blood. In an ER a judge can decide for the child. It happens a lot.
“apparent abuse”
“Apparent” - there’s the rub. I know your heart is in the right place, fellow FReeper.
As I know yours is. It will be interesting to see how this thing plays out. I wonder tho, since it involves minors, how much of it will be public record.
susie
I am sorry you miss the point.
I will try to help you.
If a person commits rape, that is a criminal act that can and should be prosecuted.
But that is not at all what I was discussing.
My discussion was relative to the idea that the state has the right to round up everyone in a community, separate them from their families and put kids in foster homes because there is a SUPPOSED crime.
To be silly to make a point, the same as if everyone on your street were locked up because there was a rape on your block.
That is not the way our laws are supposed to work.
Now back to the case in point: The woman has been determined to be of age. There has been no claim that she abused her children in any way. There is no reason to hold her. She should be released to go as she pleases.
Then each and every individual should be released as they are determined to be OK.
Actually, it is my belief that everyone should be released until an investigation determines that some individual or individuals have committed a crime and then only those should be held.
That is really the way our laws were intended to work.
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