India and Russia targeted by the Chicoms. These two countries better wake up and realize the US in not the threat to them.

We know who are enemies are. Do you in the US know yours? You keep pampering China and Pakistan and its going to bite you in the rear, maybe tragically.

When the time is right, China will seek to secure additional oil resources by force. This base is a deterrent from land invasion for retaliation on their Western front.

We know who are enemies are. Do you in the US know yours? You keep pampering China and Pakistan and its going to bite you in the rear, maybe tragically.

I fail to see Indian resolve in standing up to China or Muslims beyond Pakistan. Taiwan would love to purchase some of your weapons.

I wish both of our countries had more testicular fortitude in dealing with totalitarians and fascists.

Thank You Clinton.

Last year India tested a medium range nuclear capable missile, and the Indian General proclaimed that it was capable of hitting Bejing. I think India is aware of Chinese aggression.

I wouldn't want to share a border with the Chi-Coms. Look at the mess in Burma and North Korea. The chinese puppet masters seem to like to keep pathetic buffers on their borders.

Last year India tested a medium range nuclear capable missile, and the Indian General proclaimed that it was capable of hitting Bejing. I think India is aware of Chinese aggression.

Last time I looked, the United States had thousands of nukes capable of hitting Beijing. Having a weapon and having the fortitude to stand-up to aggression are two separate things. I'll remind you that France had a larger Army, more ships, more tanks, and more airplanes than Germany in 1939, when 90% of the German army was in Poland. A year later, they all belonged to Germany.

I fail to see Indian resolve in standing up to China or Muslims beyond Pakistan.

India tests ballistic missile capable of reaching China

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jczYbReIOoyEv6RTvj4ByWMFJT7A

BHUBANESWAR, India (AFP) — India successfully tested a nuclear-capable missile Wednesday that can hit targets deep inside China, joining the ranks of nations possessing intermediate-range missile capacity, the defence ministry said.

It marked the third test of the Agni-III missile -- India's longest-range ballistic missile -- and was staged "to establish the repeatability of the missile's performance," defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told AFP.

The missile was fired from a mobile launcher Wednesday morning at a testing site on Wheeler Island off the coast of the eastern state of Orissa.

Kar said the launch "propelled India into a select group of countries with intermediate-range ballistic missile capabilities and added yet another dimension to national deterrence."

The missile, which has a 3,000-kilometre (1,860-mile) range, can carry conventional or nuclear payloads of 1.5 tonnes, and puts China's major cities such as Shanghai within striking distance, defence analysts say.

The surface-to-surface projectile reached its designated target in 13 minutes and 20 seconds "travelling through a peak height of 350 kilometres with a velocity of more than 4,000 metres per second," said Kar.

The Agni-III -- Agni means fire in Sanskrit -- was first tested in 2006.

But that first trial of the 1.8 metre-diameter (six-foot) missile was a flop when it rose 12 kilometres before crashing into the Bay of Bengal.

The failure was blamed on a snag with its strapped-on solid fuel booster rocket. India successfully tested the missile in April 2007.

In Wednesday's test, 180 kilometres northeast of Orissa's state capital Bhubaneswar, "all the sub-systems of the missile functioned in a copybook manner, giving an outstanding integrated performance of the missile in terms of range and accuracy," Kar said.

The missile is one of a series developed as part of India's deterrence strategy against neighbouring China and Pakistan which also have nuclear weapons, analysts say.

India has shorter-range missiles that analysts say were developed to target long-time rival Pakistan with which it has fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947.

The two neighbours who launched a slow-moving peace process in 2004 aimed at resolving outstanding disputes including over disputed Kashmir often stage tit-for-tat missile tests.

But the development of the Agni III is aimed at displaying that India's deterrent reach can stretch far beyond Pakistan, analysts say.

In the last few years, however, tensions between India and China, which fought a brief border war in 1962, have eased and there is now direct trade through the Himalayas.

The Agni-III is the country's first solid fuel missile that is compact enough for easy mobility.

India's indigenously developed missile arsenal also includes the short-range Prithvi ballistic missile and the medium-range Akash.

India to test 5,000-km range, Agni-IV IRBM at year-end
Domain B ^ | 12 May, 2008 | Domain B

New Delhi: With a second successful test of the 3,500 km intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM), Agni-III, already in the bag, Indian defence scientists are planning to test a long range 5,000 km, IRBM by the end of the year.

According to Aviansh Chander, project director, the planning process for the test launch of the Agni-IV was in the final stages, now that the Agni-III had reached the stage of operationalisation. He indicated Monday that test flights could be scheduled for the end of the year, once government clearance was received.

According to Chander, an intercontinental range of 5,000-km would be achieved by strapping a solid fuel propellant-powered, third stage booster rocket on an Agni-III missile.

The second test of the Agni-III essentially tested the system's repeatability and reliability without any major technological additions as compared to the test carried out in April last year.

Apart from the longer range Agni series missiles, India will also test its ''special naval missile,'' an euphemism used by DRDO scientists for a submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM), as well as conduct a second test of an 'interceptor' missile. These tests are likely to be undertaken in the September-October period.

According to M Natarajan, director general, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), his scientists were "heavily engaged" in the special naval missile project. He, however, refused to be drawn out on when India's first nuclear submarine would roll out. "The Advance Technology Vehicle, as the nuclear submarine project is known, is not my project," Natarajan told reporters, when queried if the probable 2009 launch schedule for the submarine would be adhered to.

Agni-IV Last year December, VK Saraswat, chief controller, R&D (missiles and strategic systems), DRDO, had said that the organisation had begun work on Agni-IV, a 5,000 km range missile, to provide ''enough capability'' for a credible deterrence to the country. ''Work on the 5,000 km range missile is on and the first trial is expected to take place in early 2009,'' he said.

According to Saraswat, the Agni-IV, would have many new features, including anti-ballistic counter measures and rocket motor systems with composite materials to improve the thrust-to-weight ratio. It would also be equipped with stealth technology and be more accurate than missiles of a similar class, providing improved mobility and higher energy.

Sarawat had said then that the Agni-IV would not be an inter-continental ballistic missile, but a long range one. According to Saraswat, the Agni-III and IV were the building blocks for missiles with an intercontinental reach.

According to defence scientists, all major technologies for long range missiles have been realised with the two successful tests of the Agni-III missiles. The first successful test took place in April last year.

These technologies include high-power booster, multi-stage vehicles, re-entry technologies, which would allow aero-thermal loads to be sustained at very high Mach numbers along with a potent navigation system to maintain accuracy throughout the flight path.

According to Dr Saraswat, missiles in the range of 2,000-5,000 km would provide India ''enough capability'' to field a ''credible deterrence.''

He also said that depending on existing or emerging threats the need may arise for a 10,000 km range missile in the future. These are generally referred to as the 'Surya' class of missiles and will constitute India's inter-continental ballistic missile capability.

According to Dr Saraswat, India was also developing a ''long endurance,'' long range cruise missile that will fly at high subsonic speeds. Subsonic cruise missiles enable delivery of payloads at low cost and are generally difficult to detect because of their ability to fly at low altitudes.

ICBMs and Why India Doesn't Need Them

1. Is India developing an ICBM?
2. (if yes) The PSLV can/can't just be tipped with nukes and used as first strike weapon.
3. consequences of developing an ICBM.

Here's my take on it.

Do we need an ICBM?

We don't need an ICBM. Not even for 'prestige' or boy toys - if you will.
An ICBM does not serve any of our security needs - in fact can add to more expense if developed in the next decade, secretly.

Our security needs can be more than adequately met by IRBM Agni-3, albeit with a slightly increased range.

Unlike other countries, all our adversaries are our neighbours - fortunately or unfortunately. Why would need an ICBM for that?

Are we developing an ICBM?

I would say no - and I'm not part of the defence establishment, so its an educated guess. Here's why:

Our current/near-term primary goal is to build a nuclear triad - and we miss a land-based missile capable of hitting all of China (the Agni-3 when produced should be able to do that), we miss an SLBM, and we miss an SLCM/Land based cruise (medium/long range) missile. And we don't have a SSBN or SSN yet - some of them are ongoing projects sucking enough money from the defence budget, why divert money into an ICBM?

An ICBM development would also serve to create a hostile relationship with both Russia and USA, after all who would we want to target an ICBM with? Timbuctoo? So an ICBM we develop would antagonise both our major weapon supplier and the world's sole superpower/our major trade partner. What do we gain? A PSLV with attitude?

Like Moscow's missile defence, it may even lead to our cities being targeted by either/both of those countries - depending on whether we use our own or their tech. I know our politicians are stupid, but not THAT stupid.

Strategic reasons maybe?

Unless India ties up into a NATO-like stance against say, Russia, or against the USA - both about as possible as China letting use Dong Fengs - what would the strategic reason be, for fielding an ICBM - in the absence of a cold war?

An argument could be made that an ICBM could be built for the same reasons the Agni-1 was - speed and ease of usage. But that's patently ridiculous. The Agni-1 is a specific second-strike weapon against Pakistan, even though its range might extend to parts of China.

The Agni's are all solid-fueled, and hence can be fired within minutes. So "replacing" them with a solid-fueled behemoth missile for speed doesn't make sense - more so when reliability might be compromised. The TOPOL-M has made a case for making existing missiles very fast, indeed. Making similar improvements to the Agni is more than adequate.

Now (Indian)Navy wants Super Hornets too

HT | May 14, 2008 | Rahul Singh

Now Navy wants Super Hornets too

It Is now sufficiently clear that the Indian Navy wants to be able to use the air force’s assets of war. In a revelation so far kept under wraps, the Navy has asked Boeing a contender for India’s $10-billion tender for 126 air force fighters if the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet can operate off the INS Vikramaditya, the rechristened Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov currently being refurbished in Russia for the Indian Navy. None of the fighters in the IAF’s existing fleet have the capability to operate from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Boeing’s campaign manager for the Indian deal Michael E. Rietz has revealed that after detailed simulations conducted at the company’s test centres, the Super Hornet on offer to India, can in fact operate off the Gorshkov. The significance of Boeing’s finding lies in the fact that the Super Hornet – which by default is launched using a steam-powered catapult on American super-carriers – has never before been known to be able to take off from an angled ski-jump – the launch mechanism on India’s sole aircraft carrier INS Virat, as well as the Gorshkov and the under-construction indigenous aircraft carrier.

Rietz told HT at Lemoore, which holds half of the US Navy’s striking power in the Pacific, “In our simulation, we discovered that not only could the Super Hornet take-off from a ski-jump, but could do so with a significant weapons load.” Landing the Super Hornet on the Gorshkov would pose no problem since the warship comes equipped with an arrester cable. The 16 MiG-29K fighters that will come with the Gorshkov will land using this “trap” method.

A typical scenario illustrates the import of the newly identified ability. A Super Hornet flying with the air force from a shore base can fly hundreds of kilometres over the sea, then land on an aircraft carrier, refuel and proceed onward. The reach advantage it would give the aircraft is something the air force has only envisaged with mid-air refuellers so far. Aircraft carriers, by their very nature, can obviously stay out at sea for far longer.

In 2004, the Navy had sent out a request for information to another American firm Northrop Grumman about whether the latter’s carrier-based airborne early warning and control aircraft, the E-2 Hawkeye, could operate off the Gorshkov. However, plans to procure the aircraft in a ship-based role have since been shelved.

Indian rocket launches 10 satellites in rare space feat [MIRVs, anyone?]
Agence France-Presse ^ | 28 April, 2008 | Agence France-Presse

BANGALORE, India (AFP) — An Indian rocket blasted off and successfully launched a cluster of 10 satellites in a single mission Monday, marking a milestone for the country's 45-year-old space programme.

The PSLV rocket lifted off at 9:20 am (0350 GMT) from the Sriharikota space station in southern India in clear weather, leaving behind a massive trail of orange and white smoke, on its 13th flight.

"The mission was perfect," G. Madhavan Nair, chairman of the Bangalore-based Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), said after the launch telecast live by the broadcaster Doordarshan. "Team ISRO has done it again."

"It is a historic moment for us because it is the first time that we have launched 10 satellites in a single mission," he added, congratulating Indian scientists who broke out into applause at the mission control centre.

The rocket's unprecedented payload included an Indian remote-sensing satellite known as the Cartosat-2A, a mini satellite and eight so-called nanosatellites developed by foreign research institutions, including those from Germany and Canada.

The satellites were deployed in orbit within minutes of each other in a rare space feat, with the entire mission lasting about 20 minutes.

India started its space programme in 1963, and has since developed and put several of its own satellites into space. It has also designed and built launch rockets to reduce dependence on overseas space agencies.

A rocket blasts off from the

Sriharikota space station in

southern India where ten

satellites were launched on

Monday

The solid stage of this launch vehicle, and the fact that it deployed 10 satellites simultaneously, are just about what's needed for a potent, MIRV ICBM.

All roads lead to China border

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080507/jsp/nation/story_9236369.jsp

New Delhi, May 6: India is sprucing up its frontier with China by taking up a massive four-year project to connect villages, military posts and towns strung on the border across the Himalayas from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

The Border Roads Organisation (BRO), the military road builder, has asked for Rs 2,140 crore this year for the project to be completed by 2012.

The identification of the connections — some of the roads will be rebuilt while others will be newly laid — began after the Centre reversed its decision in 2006 to not upgrade links along the still-disputed border with China.

Since 1962, the central policy pursued by successive governments, but rarely spelt out, has been to allow the connections across the Himalayas with China to degenerate. That was the outcome of a threat perception that it would make it easier for supposedly stronger Chinese forces to roll down to India in the event of hostilities.

The first effect of the reversal of the policy, however, was felt in July 2006 when India and China agreed to start limited border trade through Nathu-la in Sikkim. Now, the Centre has asked the BRO to build or rebuild 71 roads.

The project involves laying fresh roads, double-laning and/or black-topping existing roads and repairing bridges in Ladakh, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand and, most significantly, in Arunachal.

Of the links for which feasibility studies have been done, 27 are in Arunachal, the director-general of the BRO, Lt General A.K. Nanda, said today.

Arunachal is disputed by China, which does not recognise it as Indian territory. He said nine roads were to be completed this year. Nanda confirmed that the Centre had sanctioned raising of additional units and the BRO would be recruiting more than 5,000 personnel, specifically for the projects on the India-China border.

The BRO’s Project Hirak for building roads through Naxalite-influenced districts in central India (Maharashtra, Chhattisgarh and Andhra Pradesh) was being steadily wound down with no new resources being allocated to it. However, Project Hirak is also monitored by the anti-Naxalite cell of the Union home ministry and its future would be determined in consultation with that body.

Central allocations for the BRO have recorded a steady increase since 2005-06 when it was granted Rs 1,638 crore. Last year, the amount was raised to Rs 2,686 crore. A special fund of Rs 550 crore was also created for the China border roads programme.

The decision to upgrade the roads on the China frontier is the result of a combination of factors — a lowering of threat perception, a confidence in the Indian military that is inducting newer and better equipment and also a look-east policy that the Manmohan Singh government favours by encouraging trade through disputed borders.

India has also taken stock of the active road and railway building activity on the Chinese side in Tibet. Defence minister A.K. Antony has himself admitted during visits to Sikkim and Arunchal that China’s border networks were better.

However, that in itself is not worrisome enough for the Indian establishment to raise its threat perception because India’s military believes it has alternative plans if the Chinese were to be able to deploy troops faster than they could earlier.

Nanda said the BRO was also resurfacing a 160km road in Myanmar from Tamu to Kalva. Its project in Afghanistan — the 219km Zaranj-Delaram Road, where BRO personnel have been attacked and killed by the Taliban — was “80 percent complete”.

“We expect to pull out of Afghanistan around July-August this year,” Nanda said. He admitted that the Taliban threat was very real.

Although India had sent 400 Indo-Tibetan Border Police personnel for an inner security cordon for the BRO staffers, there were still worries that the 1,400 local police that the Afghan government had arranged for “could be infiltrated”.

PHILIPPINE SEA (April 9, 2007) – U.S. and Indian Navy ships conducts a formation during Exercise Malabar 07-01. Malabar is a bilateral U.S.-Indian Navy training exercise off the coast of Okinawa, Japan. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class John L. Beeman

PHILIPPINE SEA (April 9, 2007) - Indian Navy guided-missile destroyer INS Mysore (D 60) and Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) transit in formation in support of Exercise Malabar 07-01. Malabar is a bilateral U.S.-Indian Navy training exercise off the coast of Okinawa, Japan. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class John L. Beeman

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer JS Yuudachi (DD 103) leads a formation of ships during Exercise Malabar 2007 in the Bay of Bengal.

070905-N-5387K-012 BAY OF BENGAL (Sept. 5, 2007) - Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer JS Yuudachi (DD 103) leads a formation of ships during Exercise Malabar 2007 in the Bay of Bengal. More than 20,000 naval personnel from the navies of Australia, India, Japan, the Republic of Singapore, and the United States are taking part in the exercise, designed to increase interoperability among the navies and to develop common procedures for maritime security operations. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Juan Antoine King (RELEASED)

An Indian Navy frigate takes position during Malabar 2007, an exercise involving Kitty Hawk and Nimitz Carrier Strike Group and ships of the navies of Australia, India, Japan, and the Republic of Singapore.

070905-N-1730J-163 INDIAN OCEAN (Sept. 5, 2007) - An Indian Navy frigate takes position during Malabar 2007, an exercise involving Kitty Hawk and Nimitz Carrier Strike Group and ships of the navies of Australia, India, Japan, and the Republic of Singapore. Malabar 2007 is designed to increase interoperability among the navies and to develop common procedures for maritime security operations. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Jason A. Johnston (RELEASED)

Naval ships from India, Australia, Japan, Singapore, and the United States break away after a joint photo exercise during Exercise Malabar 07-2.

070905-N-6106R-377 BAY OF BENGAL (Sept. 5, 2007) - Naval ships from India, Australia, Japan, Singapore, and the United States break away after a joint photo exercise during Exercise Malabar 07-2. Kitty Hawk and Nimitz Carrier Strike Groups are taking part in the multinational exercise. The formation included Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyers JS Yuudachi (DD 103) and JS Oonami (DD 111), Republic of Singapore Navy frigate RSS Formidable (68), Royal Australian Navy frigate HMAS Adelaide (FFG 01), Indian Navy destroyers INS Ranvijay (D 55) and INS Ranjit (D 53), Indian Navy frigate INS Brahmaputra (F 31), Indian Navy aircraft carrier INS Ranjit (R 22), guided-missile destroyers USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG 54) and USS Higgins (DDG 76), aircraft carriers USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) and USS Nimitz (CVN 68), and attack submarine USS Chicago (SSN 721). U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Stephen W. Rowe (RELEASED)

The two images that didn't load:

PHILIPPINE SEA (April 9, 2007) – U.S. and Indian Navy ships conducts a formation during Exercise Malabar 07-01. Malabar is a bilateral U.S.-Indian Navy training exercise off the coast of Okinawa, Japan. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class John L. Beeman

PHILIPPINE SEA (April 9, 2007) - Indian Navy guided-missile destroyer INS Mysore (D 60) and Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) transit in formation in support of Exercise Malabar 07-01. Malabar is a bilateral U.S.-Indian Navy training exercise off the coast of Okinawa, Japan. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class John L. Beeman

So if you think those are examples of Indian resolve, you must think that the United States has ten times as much resolve, right?

I’m sure they have a resolve. Most likely more than India’s.

Unfortunately, we Americans are constitutionally incapable of knowing who our enemies are until the bombs begin to fall. The rare individuals who buck this trend are are “radicals,” “alarmists,” “jingoists,” and / or “bigots.”

Just curious, how exactly would you like China to be dealt with?

Just curious, how exactly would you like China to be dealt with?

The same way that I would like all totalitarian regimes to be dealt with.

1. The UN should be dissolved and an organization of democracies should replace it.
2. We should not give them most favored trade status.
3. Military ambitions against a democracy or in an area that is counter to our national interests should be met with clear resolve and followed with action if required.

The only thing our 2 nations(since they have nukes) along with Japan and Australia can do is containment. Do not let their sphere of intrests grow in asia.China would lose a hot conventional (Air and sea I mean)war. Then they would fire nukes. They would lose that as well but our sides would take large losses.What needs to be done is to form an alliance sort of like NATO for the sole purpose of Chicom containment.

I wish both of our countries had more testicular fortitude in dealing with totalitarians and fascists.

Actually, America has done just that and has continued to. There are US troops in Iraq after the ousting of Sadaam Hussein and troops in Afghanistan after the ousting of the Taliban.

And US corporations and businesses has flooded into China since 1980. China kicked out US and Western business not too long after 1949. But now they are back in greater numbers than ever before. The US and the free world has won. The Chinese have been shown that the road to prosperity is the integration into the world economy and they are taking full advantage of it.

In fact, America and the European Union continue to pry China's market open and to further integrate her into the global economy. And against Chinese resistance. Yet, in the long run, the West will eventually have her way.

Militarily, America continues to send her troops into at least a hundred places across the globe, whether direct combatants or advisors.

It perplexes me why people on this board are complaining about the way things are, especially in regards to China.

Here is what I've observed. The more the West pry China's market open, the more she prospers. And yet, the more she prospers, the more angst she creates in the West.

Isn't that ironic??? :)

Here is what I've observed. The more the West pry China's market open, the more she prospers. And yet, the more she prospers, the more angst she creates in the West.

Prosperity for China has an opening influence, but it is not an end in itself. Germany also had a surge of prosperity in the 1930's. The fire of nationalism, misdirected by the NAZI's ensured that Germany's prosperity did not end so well.

Currently, Chinese nationalism is seen by the West as focusing on racial superiority and a desire to prove their power by making lesser countries kowtow.

There are 40 million democratic Taiwanese who do not desire to be forced into the collective, yet China is growing its military by leaps and bounds with the sole focus of doing just that.

Meanwhile, we have a large and powerful socialist movement in the United States who has decided that we must unilaterally disarm and lay our head upon the block for every third world potentate with an ax.

Prosperity for China has an opening influence, but it is not an end in itself. Germany also had a surge of prosperity in the 1930's. The fire of nationalism, misdirected by the NAZI's ensured that Germany's prosperity did not end so well.

Germany's economy during the 1930's was significantly geared towards war production. Look at China's current numbers from exports, to GDP, to consumer purchases. China's military spending is small in comparison to all other measures to China's economy. And even when using the Pentagon's estimate of China's military budget. And when using the Pentagon's estimate of $120-$130 billion or so, it represents a reasonable percentage of China's overall GDP.

Currently, Chinese nationalism is seen by the West as focusing on racial superiority and a desire to prove their power by making lesser countries kowtow.

It may be perceived in the West that way, but is it in reality true? Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are critical of Americans as being racist. But simply because they have that point of view, does that make it true?

There are 40 million democratic Taiwanese who do not desire to be forced into the collective, yet China is growing its military by leaps and bounds with the sole focus of doing just that.

I have worked with people who are native Taiwanese, and there is indeed a strong political view amongst many for independence. But there are equally strong views from those who trace their ancestry to China and who were born and raised in Taiwan who believe Taiwan is part of China. And they are just as passionate in regards to their view.

Meanwhile, we have a large and powerful socialist movement in the United States who has decided that we must unilaterally disarm and lay our head upon the block for every third world potentate with an ax.

I don't know if you disagreeing with my previous comment or not, but did you read the part where I said that US forces are involved in over a hundred places across the globe? ...and more so than any other country in the world. The US military budget represents half the world's military budget. So, if there is a socialist movement in the US to disarm, they aren't having much of an affect from my observation.

It may be perceived in the West that way, but is it in reality true?

They're a bull in a China shop throughout Asia when it comes to throwing their economic muscle and UN veto around. Perception has nothing to do with it. Its a reality from Thailand to the Middle East.

I have worked with people who are native Taiwanese, and there is indeed a strong political view amongst many for independence. But there are equally strong views from those who trace their ancestry to China and who were born and raised in Taiwan who believe Taiwan is part of China. And they are just as passionate in regards to their view.

I'm starting to suspect you are just a Chicom propagandist. The native Taiwanese far outnumber the 1949 immigrants and I don't buy that any of them relish surrendering their freedom to be part of the hive.

I don't know if you disagreeing with my previous comment or not, but did you read the part where I said that US forces are involved in over a hundred places across the globe? ...and more so than any other country in the world. The US military budget represents half the world's military budget.

And we still haven't taken another country like Tibet and claimed it as our own. How about that.

So, if there is a socialist movement in the US to disarm, they aren't having much of an affect from my observation.

Well you can keep hoping, that Chinese money keeps rolling in to them.

They're a bull in a China shop throughout Asia when it comes to throwing their economic muscle and UN veto around. Perception has nothing to do with it. Its a reality from Thailand to the Middle East.

Depends on how much history you want to go into. If you go all the way back to 1949, I would agree with you. But recently, China has tried a more diplomatic approach. And just about every country has dirt that can be dug up if you go back far enough.

I'm starting to suspect you are just a Chicom propagandist.

On this message board, get in line. You are not the first to accuse me of that. But I WANT democracy to come to China. Someday and in due time, though.

The native Taiwanese far outnumber the 1949 immigrants and I don't buy that any of them relish surrendering their freedom to be part of the hive.

I don't know what the percentages are, but I have met a fair number of Chinese Taiwanese. And they are just as adament about Taiwan being part of China as the Taiwanese natives are about independence. If you get a chance to ever meet someone from there, I would suggest you ask them their political view in that regard. They're not communists and they enjoy democracy as well as anyone else.

And we still haven't taken another country like Tibet and claimed it as our own. How about that.

Well, I was making a point in regards to your comment about how the US should deal with dictators in post #14. My point was, is that the US, merely by the presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, is doing just that. And that the US military budget reflects that commitment.

Well you can keep hoping, that Chinese money keeps rolling in to them.

Actually, up to this point, most of China's money that has been "rolling in" to the US has been used to buy government T-Bills. T-Bills which have been used to finance everything from pensions to .....drum roll please.... the US military.

Depends on how much history you want to go into. If you go all the way back to 1949, I would agree with you. But recently, China has tried a more diplomatic approach.

Like the Sudan and its continued attachment of monetary attachments and votes to refusals to recognize Taiwan? Although, I suppose more real power translates into more subtle threats.

And just about every country has dirt that can be dug up if you go back far enough.

You're quite the Chicom apologist. One doesn't have to have a very long memory or history book to uncover Chinese dirt.

On this message board, get in line. You are not the first to accuse me of that. But I WANT democracy to come to China. Someday and in due time, though.

Me too. I also want it to be a democracy that respects the rights of minorities and non-Chinese. Chinese nationalism is very dangerous right now. The last thing I want is conflict with China, but the Chinese seem hell bent on it.

I don't know what the percentages are, but I have met a fair number of Chinese Taiwanese. And they are just as adamant about Taiwan being part of China as the Taiwanese natives are about independence. If you get a chance to ever meet someone from there, I would suggest you ask them their political view in that regard. They're not communists and they enjoy democracy as well as anyone else.

I know many Formosans. They do not consider themselves to be Han Chinese. The Nationalists came from the mainland, so of course they did, but that is less than 20% of the population. The "Chinese" aspect of Formosans is no different than an identification as Caucasian. Its not nationalistic, its racial.

When China attacks Taiwan, what do you think the appropriate world response should be?

On this message board, get in line. You are not the first to accuse me of that. But I WANT democracy to come to China. Someday and in due time, though.

A very telling statement that I missed the first time. What exactly is it that you want the Chicoms to accomplish by brute force before China will be ready to accept the evils of the past as a fate accompli and move to peaceful democracy?

Like the Sudan and its continued attachment of monetary attachments and votes to refusals to recognize Taiwan? Although, I suppose more real power translates into more subtle threats.

China needs and needs it badly. But there are already efforts under way to get China aligned with the UN while at the same helping China address her need for oil. As far as Taiwan, well, it's part of China so why should it recognize it as an independent country?

You're quite the Chicom apologist. One doesn't have to have a very long memory or history book to uncover Chinese dirt.

Well, I imagine if you want to get into name calling, I've run across many apologist in my life time as well. From the resettlement of Native Americans, to slavery, to Andersonville, to the put down of Peurto Rico's revolution. I can go on.

but the Chinese seem hell bent on it.

I don't believe so.

I know many Formosans. They do not consider themselves to be Han Chinese. The Nationalists came from the mainland, so of course they did, but that is less than 20% of the population. The "Chinese" aspect of Formosans is no different than an identification as Caucasian. Its not nationalistic, its racial.

Yes, the Han's are a minority. But they are still part of Taiwan and Taiwanese citizens. And, they have never said Taiwan was independent. It was their government that the Island of Taiwan was surrendered to after the defeat of Japan. It was directed by the US. Check your history. This same government, the KMT, wants better relations with China and does not want to declare independence.

When China attacks Taiwan, what do you think the appropriate world response should be?

That won't occurr as long as the world, the US, Europe and Japan reconignize that Taiwan is part of China, which is what is happening so far. Economic integration will help the process.

A very telling statement that I missed the first time. What exactly is it that you want the Chicoms to accomplish by brute force before China will be ready to accept the evils of the past as a fate accompli and move to peaceful democracy?

Wow, that questions sure is loaded with accusations.

In my city, they have been trying to build a third run way for years. It is badly needed. But there was a legal battle that ran for 8 years before they could begin construction on it. America has such a luxury to fight it out. China does not. There are many inside and outside China who believe that in a democracy, China would not be able to build their infrastructure the way they have. Yes, there is a certain level of brute pragmatism that goes along with China's decision to build, but it is necessary. If they had to fight 8 year legal battles for every structure they built, it would never get built. Once their infrastructure is built, then there are other issues that will need to be addressed that can best be achieved through a democracy. But building major infrastructure, is best done through strong central decision making.

Correction to post #23:

China needs oil and needs it badly.

Sixty launch complexes is “extensive?” They better not ever photograph North Dakota or Montana. There’s nearly 700 there.

I must assume that you are actually on the Chicom payroll as an intelligence agent, cruising websites and blogs in an attempt to muddy the waters for your masters. Your supposed history is crap and won't fly here at FR where people are actually knowledgeable of such things.

The Soviets played the same game, they just didn't have the Internet.

You are a puppet of tyrants. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese will apparently have to die to check your country's nationalism. You greatly over estimate China's capabilities.

I hope Taiwan has a few dozen nukes ready to go. Wouldn't it be funny if they bought them from your North Korean friends (Stalinist murderers that they are)?

Yes, there is a certain level of brute pragmatism that goes along with China's decision to build, but it is necessary.

In other words, people must be crushed to form the foundations of your utopia. How Stalinist.

Communism has killed over 100 million people in the last 90 years, looks like you want to keep that tally running until the peasants get it right.

Perhaps you should read up on Chinese casualties in Korea before you get too gungho about Taiwan.