Report Finds Little Gain From Vouchers

The Washington Post ^ | June 17, 2008 | Maria Glod and Bill Turque

[houston1]

it’s those damn socialists like Ben Franklin that insisted on every citizen getting a free education

[Amelia]

In my area, the total cost (and I think this is an underestimate) for a public school education is something like $9,000 a year. A Catholic high school in the area announced that it will be doing it for only $6,100 next year. The parents at that Catholic school pay less than $3,000 tuition as well. The parishes kick in the rest. These are good schools too. Private schools can be much cheaper than public schools.

In my area, the total cost for a public school education is about $8500-8600 per year.

The tuition at the Catholic high school, which also gets parish & alumni donations, is $9220-9900 per year - but it's a very good school.

Private schools can be much cheaper than public schools, but usually that's because the private schools are subsidized by a church or other organization, and/or because they don't offer the same services as a public school.

For example, the tuition cost at your private school is not the actual cost per student, but you're comparing it to the actual cost per student at the public schools.

Note also that many private schools don't have cafeterias, bus service, libraries, etc., and private schools aren't required to accept students with disabilities (some of whom require very expensive services from the public schools).

[Tax-chick]

If Ben had lived to meet Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell, he’d have known better.

[Amelia]

Good discipline and a focus on the basics are important, but I’d also like to see the teaching strategies used and how the administration supports good teaching methodology and interacts with parents.

You might want to google "high-flying schools" - these are schools with high achievement even though they have high poverty and/or minority populations. I've seen a couple of books that give the common characteristics of these high-flying schools.

There are also some people who say the methodology of identifying the schools was flawed and overestimates the number of such schools. Probably a bit of ideology in both viewpoints.

[Amelia]

I would like the government to have some management oversight about where this money goes.

Well, there you go - increasing the size and power of the government! ;-)

But people who take money and provide no value should be cut off and (when appropriate) charged with a crime.

I agree, and I think in Milwaukee they eventually were.

Just theoretically, do you have any problem with Christian schools receiving voucher money? What about Jewish schools? What about schools founded by Muslims and groups such as the Black Panthers?

[vladimir998]

you wrote:

“For example, the tuition cost at your private school is not the actual cost per student, but you’re comparing it to the actual cost per student at the public schools.”

Please read what I wrote again:

“In my area, the total cost (and I think this is an underestimate) for a public school education is something like $9,000 a year. A Catholic high school in the area announced that it will be doing it for only $6,100 next year. The parents at that Catholic school pay less than $3,000 tuition as well.”

As you can see I compared TOTAL COST and mentioned what the parents pay in tuition. Your post (”...but you’re comparing it to the actual cost per student at the public schools”) makes it look like I did something I did not do.

[Amelia]

I’m not surprised by this. I have never understood the logic behind solving a problem by moving the problem from one location to the other. The success or non-success of a school is mostly determined by the students, not the teachers or the school. Good students will do well even in bad schools. Bad students will do poorly in good schools.

Many FReepers seem to think that the problems in the schools are mainly caused by the teachers, and particularly the NEA.

While I know there are some incompetent teachers, and I don't agree with most of the NEA's positions, I agree with you that students and parents are a huge factor.

[Amelia]

I apologize; I misread your post.

What will the Catholic school do to hold down the costs?

[ClearCase_guy]

Just theoretically, do you have any problem with Christian schools receiving voucher money? What about Jewish schools? What about schools founded by Muslims and groups such as the Black Panthers?

Somewhere in America there is a little old lady (more than one) who lives on Social Security payments. She gets government money and every Sunday, she slips some of it into the collection plate at her church. Her next door neighbor sends some of her SS check to the Black Panthers.

I want school voucher money to go to parents. What type of school the parents choose to support is not my business. They money is theirs to spend, so long as it is spent for education.

[Riflema]

Please, please, please go read the report extract at the source, not the WaPo: http://www.ed.gov/programs/dcchoice/factsheet.html , you will see that it is not all gloom and doom, in fact it speaks of improvement on a year-on-year basis. Give it five years and you will see real change. And we all want change now don't we? /s

[barb-tex]

Another point against vouchers, where would you spend them. Where would the teachers for these new private schools come from?
barbra ann

[grellis]

You're telling me that private schools, when given $13,500 per student can't perform better??

No amount of money can improve the performance of many failing students if their parents don't give a damn.

[ClearCase_guy]

True.

But if the school has the power to push out the deadwood (and public schools usually don't have that power) then the students who remain in the school don't fall into the hopeless category you describe. For those students, $13,500 should go a long way.

[grellis]

while public schools must admit every one that applies.

Not always. Our local school district has a group of "magnet" schools. Families must apply for acceptance into the magnet program if they want to attend. Acceptance is based on academic achievement. Many students are declined outright; others can sit on a waiting list for a year or two before a slot opens.

[Salvation]

Good grief, give it another year, at least!

[Amelia]

For those students, $13,500 should go a long way.

You're assuming that the entire $13,500 actually gets spent in D.C. classrooms. SoftballMominVA has shown on several threads that a good chunk of that money actually goes for lawsuits and to send special education students to extremely expensive private schools because the special education department in D.C. has been incompetent and/or corrupt for years.

An interesting point...the really "top-notch" private schools in the D.C. area, including Sidwell Friends, St. Albans, etc., cost well over $20K per year per student.

[grellis]

What will the Catholic school do to hold down the costs?

Our diocese is going to be the first in Michigan to have its own school district. Not the whole diocese, because it is huge, but a district nonetheless. All Catholic schools in Lansing and several more from surrounding communities will be in the district. Everything, financially, will be standardized, from teacher salaries and benefits, tuition, and everything else that comes with a price tag--books, computers, internet access, the whole nine yards. You save when you buy in bulk; you save more when you buy in bigger bulk. We'll know in a few years if it's true. Tuition will go up at some schools and decrease at others this coming fall.

[ClearCase_guy]

Bottomline, for me:

Washington DC public schools are the third most expensive public schools in the country, per student.
Washington DC public schools are the fourth worst in the country, based on graduation rates.

I'm saying that Washington DC public schools are broken, and they need to do something -- anything! -- different. Vouchers seem like a possible way forward.

After a two year study, the education professionals are saying that vouchers don't work. You seem to not like vouchers. I'm assuming that you are an education professional.

Have you got a plan to fix this?

[grellis]

I think the dollar amounts assigned to students in voucher programs are just as meaningless as the dollar amounts assigned to students in regular ps programs. They mean nothing. Our school district nets something like $6,700 annually for each K-8 student enrolled. The only part of that money that actually touches the kids is the building upkeep and the teacher's pay. My three boys just passed through kindergarten, 3rd and 5th grade. Not one of them had an actual textbook this year--not one. Teachers have one master copy of workbooks (math, language arts, social studies, geography, etc) and they have to photocopy each lesson for every student. Teachers supply the copy paper because the district won't. Teachers have to use a code, just for them, in order to use the copier--their usage is monitored. One copy of every lesson has to be given to the principal, and the number of lessons has to tally the copier usage or the teacher is in hot water. Flabbergasting minutiae. A lot of folks on this forum love to rail against ps teachers, and I'm not saying they walk on water, but the amount of crap many of them have to put up with is just unreal.

As for the $6,700...I'd love to know where it went, because it didn't go into the classroom.

[Amelia]

I'm saying that Washington DC public schools are broken, and they need to do something -- anything! -- different.

Can't disagree with you there. D.C. schools seem to have the problems that plague most inner-city schools, compounded with perhaps more incompetence, graft, and corruption than usual because they have Congress pumping money into the system. I'm not sure if property taxes help fund schools in D.C., but I'm sure the value of any real estate not owned by the government is extremely high.

Adrian Fenty and Michelle Rhee seem to be making some progress at breaking the cronyism and entrenched incompetence, and I hope they will be successful. If they are, that should help reduce costs and improve performance.

As others have pointed out, part of the problem resides with the students and their families, and I'm not sure what will fix that.

If you read any of the actual studies, you'll find that the really poor students from the really bad schools didn't apply for vouchers in nearly the numbers that the program designers had hoped. The researchers didn't know why, but opined that the parents were either unable or unwilling to complete the application process, or perhaps that they preferred their children attending schools closer to home.

One thing this means is that the children in this study -- both those who received vouchers and those who applied but didn't receive them -- are different from other poor children in D.C. schools, because they have parents who are willing and able to make an effort to apply for the vouchers and who want a better education for their children. That may be why there isn't as much difference as might be expected between the achievement of the two groups of children.

You seem to not like vouchers. I'm assuming that you are an education professional.

That strikes me as very close to ad hominem rather than addressing the actual issues, but I'll bite. I am a teacher, and it's not that I'm theoretically opposed to vouchers so much as that I don't see them as the ultimate solution for the education problem for a number of reasons, some of which I've mentioned here.