Posted on 07/01/2008 10:40:58 AM PDT by wintertime
We must be willing to redefine education. What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens. It was created by bureaucrats and special interests who wanted to control children and teens.
I talked with a young lady the other day – 14-years-old – who loves horses and aims to own stables and teach riding, among other things. She’s been working with horses since she was five. She’s good enough now that she “breaks” new ones and retrains ones facing changes in the use they’re being put to. She knows her stuff.
(snip)
Then there’s her other life – public school. She failed her end-of-year math exam by three points, so she’s going to summer school. She’ll have to pass the test to move on to the next grade. I’ve talked with her. She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra. She’s more accomplished than many adults (even ones who did pass algebra). But she has four more years of school to go, during which time she’ll have to pass endless tests and divert her efforts from what she knows she’ll devote her life to.
(snip) I get many calls a month from parents of teens who simply haven’t managed to fit into the school mold. They’re smart kids, often kids with serious interests they’re prevented from pursuing because so many adults in their lives are running them through the testing/counseling/therapy wringer.
(snip)
In order to redefine education, we will have to engage in some self-liberation, for most of us have a very hard time letting go (I mean really letting go) of the idea that the state knows some secret about education that we don’t and that if we defy their model we just might be sorry.
(snip)
The indirect beneficiaries of the education-industrial-complex are: spouses and other relatives, subcontractors and suppliers to the schools, and even other businesses seemingly far removed from the government schools. For example, my dentist and his office staff depend on government school dental insurance for a living. Ministers in my town depend upon the collection plate offerings of those benefiting from the education-industrial-complex.
Then there are privately employed workers who benefit by not having young people compete for their jobs. These jobs are often union domininated. The more years a young person is a slave in a government school desk, the less competition there is for many high paying jobs.
So?...What is the result? Answer: We have infantilized our teens so that others can suck a living from them.
Much of what is considered "normal" teen behavior is **not** normal. It is pathologic! Behavior that is written off as being "typical" of the teen years is generally **not** seen in homeschoolers who have been homeschooled from the beginning.
I have a few suggestions:
1) Try not to institutionalize your child unless there is absolutely no other alternative. Homeschool if at all possible.
2) I would like to see a private company develop at test similar to the GED. This test could be given to any child at any age. If they passed they would be issued a state high school diploma.
The problem with the government administered GED is that the states in which I lived will not allow youth to take it until they are 16 or 18. This makes it impossible for them to qualify for government ( and many private) scholarships to college and trade schools.
3) I would like see a private company develop tests for each grade. Then employers, colleges, and trade schools could know for certain that a youth or adult really does have a 4th, 7th, 10th, or 12th grade ( for example) education. Most important parents could **know** if their children really were earning the A's and B's the government was putting on their report card. If a youth passed a certain grade then a business, college, or trade school would know they had the academic skills to succeed on the job or in the program of study.
>> What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens.
Funny ... I never thought education was about US understanding children and teens, but getting children and teens to understand things.
This is precisely the problem. Too much “understanding”, not enough teaching.
H
That was me alright. Of course, my serious interests were beach, beer, and babes.
Such reactionary, right-wing statements are not allowed, Comrade. Off to the re-education camp with you.
/sarc
Aren't the official tests already produced by private organizations? That's what I always thought... I'm asking because we're at that point now, trying to decide how to proceed. (We're considering CLEP.)
AKA: undisciplined.
Good luck with that pony business, toots.
Hemorrhage,
My oldest homeschooler finished all college general courses and Calculus III by the age of 15. He then enrolled in business administration program at private college.
During his first semester he attended the private college's “jobs fair”. The next day he received a **serious** offer for an entry level management position with a local bank. I believe that, if he had taken that offer, he would have done **well**....even at the age of 15.
The point is that my son is **not** unusual. He is **not** a genius. He **normally** bright. He is **normal**. It is the institutionalized child who is being artificially retarded in their social, academic, and career development.
There are children by the millions stuck in government schools who are just as bright and similarly talented as my son,..but...these institutionalized children are artificially held back merely to serve as widgets in providing jobs to government employees in the education-industrial-complex.
And they should get rid of the social engineering aspect of education. Such as, condoms on cucumbers, gay pride type celebrations. I have never understood any of that sex education stuff. Sex education was supposed to teach our children the biological facts about how their body works and the reproductive system. And also teach them that there are problems with sex activity outside marriage, such as unwanted pregnancy and VD. Instead it morphed somehow into discussions of how to have safe sex and homosexuality. Homosexuality has nothing to do with reproduction, so there’s no reason to even discuss it.
Try not to institutionalize your child “
Excellent way to accurately refer to sending your child to government school!
I believe you are right, but, to my knowledge it is not possible to get a state high school diploma without doing one of two things:
1) Graduate from high school.
2) Pass the GED which students are forbidden to take until they are 16 in most states ( to my knowledge), and in some states, 18.
Without a GED, getting government scholarship aid ( and even private ) is very difficult.
Also, as an employer, I simply could not depend on a high school diploma as any indication that the student could even read. I wasted far, far, too much time interview people who could not do the job because they could not speak standard English, or read and write well enough.
I resorted to insisting on at least some community college on the resume before asking a person in for an interview. The job absolutely does **not** need a community college level education. All that is needed is basic literacy and reasonable command of English, ( not even math), but other than seeing community college on the resume I simply could not tell of the person could read well enough to do the job.
As an employer, I would like to see a private company issue a certified transcript that a person was literate, and could speak and write English, to a certain grade level, and abandon having to rely on seeing community college on the resume.
By the way, I once hired a homeschooler ( part-time) who was only 14. She was absolutely terrific in the job! She went on to get another job with a larger office, and now is making a career, with an **excellent** salary in being an office manager of a very large health clinic. She never went to college. She never graduated from high school or took the GED. So far, for her there has been no need.
Excellent way to accurately refer to sending your child to government school!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Re: “Institutionalized”
This infuriates the government school defenders. Also, it is being picked up by the larger conservative media. I see it frequently now. :)
By the way, language is important. The Marxists have known this for more than a century. It is time conservatives used language to their advantage.
I agree. Her parents should impress upon her the absolute critical importance of algebra and other courses that she considers to be 'unimportant.' Algebra is the first level of higher order thinking in the mathematics world and it is something she will use every day, whether she knows it or not. Yes, I agree with the author that in her field of horse management this girl is probably much more knowledgeable than a typical adult. That does not mean this girl is smarter, or has the abstract reasoning ability to compete with the business world.
The adults in her life are doing her a disservice by allowing a 14 year old with the typical long term vision of a teenager keep her options so limited.
As far as keeping kids in school longer than they want - I also why 'why?' If they are so miserable and school is such a waste of time, pull them out today and sign them up as home schoolers. Then let them chart their own course free of the public schools.
Some people would rather curse the darkness, than light a candle.
Your post took the words right out of my mouth.
If you do not want to be contacted *please** let me know, and I will remove your name.
I surely wouldn’t wish to bother you, but I don’t want you to miss these education articles, either. Those managing the Public Education Ping list might fail to notify you due to my being the author of the thread.
I will call this ping list:
“The All Opinions Welcome Government Education Ping List” ! “
is the point that she shouldn't have to study algebra? Because I think that we have enough people who can't understand why their house note is suddenly so high and why they owe so much on their credit cards.
14 year olds don’t get to decide that they aren’t going to learn algebra. In fact, a 14 year old who can’t master basic algebra is probably not smart enough to manage a business. This was a really bad example for the author to cite.
“She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra.”
A person such as you describe is suffering from the effects of the sin of Pride -
“I shouldn’t HAVE to do something that I don’t want to do.”
BTW, anyone hear “Madam X” call into Rush today?
She said something about her daughter being “the victim of a liberal education” and “marrying a domineering metrosexual”.
My first thought was “Well, WHO’S FAULT IS THAT, PARENTS?”
Therefore if "sweet lil' 14" doesn't want to learn algebra, she shouldn't be forced because SHE has decided her fate already. Might be good for a parent to help her form a backup plan.
It figures, doesn’t it?
Libs think themselves smarter/wiser than anyone that has ever lived, including God Himself,
so why shouldn’t they believe that the next generation is wiser still?
Or even a “your primary plan will require a working knowledge of compound interest, like it or not” message and maybe a good grounding if she can’t get her priorities right.
JenB,
Here are two more examples the author uses from the same essay:
I knew a young man some years ago who was earning $25,000 a year working part time at his own business. He was in 10th grade. He felt silly, he said, sitting in a room full of kids who spent their lives studying for tests and playing video games. He succeeded in quitting in the 11th grade and is now a highly successful businessman.
Two years ago, I got a call from a 16-year-old girl who was miserable in school. She had a family situation that evoked daily mockery from her classmates. On her own, she collected motivational quotations and had mapped out plans to become a hair stylist and open her own shop, but of course, the system wouldn’t let her go..
I don’t know if this is still the case, but it used to be, in England you could legally leave school at age 14-1/2 if you had an apprenticeship. That has always made sense to me. Seems to me a law like that would help the young lady in the story. People can always go to adult school and get more education later if they change their minds about what they want to do with their lives.
I think there are a lot of people who are unaware that there is any other, legitimate way to go.
I recently spent time with a 17 year old neice. She tossed out a comment about a discussion she'd had with her friends about suicide. My 62 year old father was shocked and dismayed. I reminded him that when he was a teen he was allowed to be useful. He earned his own money, his older sibs had been truly useful to the family by cooking, cleaning and looking after younger ones while the parents worked. Sometimes they worked alongside the parents. My father knew that at 18, he would truly be an independent adult.
Our kids are allowed to do very little that is truly meaningful. We give them "chores" that don't really matter. Many are not allowed to work. They face years and years of being told, "Do this now and eventually it will be of some use to you." Yet, much of the actual material isn't what is important. We want to teach them to think, and to have discipline. They know that the major themes of Heart of Darkness don't matter a whit in the universe, unless they plan to be English teachers, so who cares?
The lucky kids find meaning in belonging to a team or playing a sport or instrument well. Some find meaning in art or are really motivated to perform well in school to meet higher education goals. But there are a whole lot of kids who aren't particularly athletic, musical, artistic or educationally motivated. Those kids are in BIG trouble.
All official tests are written by private organizations. Some of the state tests for lower grades - not end of course - are frequently written with significant state input. Tests such as the Stanford, Iowa, SAT/ACT's are not only professionally written, but are standardized to a specific age group and the testing data is available for anyone who wishes to analyze the data construct.
CLEP is written by the same folks who handle AP's and SAT's. It is a good option for kids with broad background knowledge, especially in the liberal arts and basic sciences. As with AP's, it is up to the colleges to decide how the tests are used within their organization. Thankfully, my daughter was able through AP's to satisfy her history, English, and cross-curricular requirements and is entering her college 3 credits shy of a second semester sophomore. She actually satisfied her basic science and math requirements, but is choosing to retake just to make sure she has the foundation the school requires.
The GED is written by the American Council of Education, which is an organization of about 2000 colleges and universities. The only problem with GED's is the fraud that is prevalent. There are quite a few organizations that claim to represent the ACE, and offer an on-line version of the GED, and that is a huge red flag. Unfortunately, I know about a dozen or so kids that after bragging how easy the GED was, found out they were defrauded and a couple of them just gave up in disgust and never completed the GED program or earned a diploma.
Young people should focus more on math and science today, imho. But, in going through one son's algebra book, I do have to admit, I don't think the average person will use all of it.
Instead of requiring Algebra, Geometry, etc., I'd like to see the same math covered but organized according to: Financial Investments, Real Estate, Business, Building & Construction, etc. If this girl (and many other students) were given examples of how math applies to her life, she might become interested.
There are real-life math programs available, but so far they're not very thorough, at least not the books I've found.
Applied mathematics should be a REQUIREMENT from grade school on up. Personal finance should be taught at least from 7th on up.
1) One one level do we **personally** feel this 14 year old should study algebra? I **personally** insisted that **my** children learned algebra. I **personally** think that those children who learn algebra have more options open to them in life.
But.....
2) Do we think the government should force this 14 year old to sit in a prison-like government building for four more years, strictly confined behind a desk, when this is against the will of her parents and the 14 year old herself?
“domineering metrosexual”
Oxymoron
You are so right. When kids are not pushed to be something beyond their sphere and to respect worldly authorities, and have ample idle time on their hands, trouble has a chance to follow.
My friends told me I was cruel (yep, direct quote) when I MADE both of mine start working at 14 (Dominoes, answering phones) because they were too young, or might be exposed to bad elements. Well, maybe, but I wanted them to learn very young the value of a dollar, the dignity of hard work, and how to put aside your own immediate needs for someone who doesn't really care about "you" and "your" needs, but the needs of the company.
You are right - kids need to feel useful and either infantalizing or worshiping teens does nothing to help them, only hurt.
That's the crux of the issue right there. I didn't see your post before I posted #26, but that one line says it all.
No, but if her parents choose to have her schooled by the government they can darn well make sure she takes her algebra seriously. If they want to homeschool and eliminate the algebra that’s their choice. Otherwise she needs to shut up and do her homework. And complain to her parents, not a journalist. Even if the system is reformed it won’t be in time to help her so she’d better find an individual solution.
If you would like to be on or off this list, please freepmail Amelia, Gabz, Shag377, or SoftballMominVa
That was my thought. And Rush was perplexed by that as well.
Probably just a typical smug, arrogant liberal who thinks looking effeminate makes him look smarter. He probably treats his new wife in the same arrogant condescending manner that he treats everyone else.
Why a father would allow this crap is beyond me.
It makes plenty of sense to me.
Seems to me a law like that would help the young lady in the story. People can always go to adult school and get more education later if they change their minds about what they want to do with their lives.
Exactly! There is always the community college route if they wish to further their education as an adult.
I have an idea!
If they leave school after 8th grade, they will not have used 4 years of their government K-12 education. If they decide to return to school at age 30 how about giving those 4 years of unused K-12 money in the form of community or regular college scholarships?
Against the will of her parents? Oh, come on! If the parents wanted something different, they'd find something different.
Thanks for all the information. I didn’t know about the GED frauds. I’ll be sure to watch out for them.
Parents should be doing the pushing, **not** a government with a gun.
You are right - kids need to feel useful and either infantalizing or worshiping teens does nothing to help them, only hurt.
Feel? Feel?
Kids "feel" useful when they actually ARE DOING useful things. Simply attempting to create an environment where the child merely "feels" useful is an educational fairyland and the child **knows** this. High school for this child is a Potemkin village.
For a child who needs a college education for his career goals, then algebra and the other college prep courses mean the child really is **doing** something **useful** that will further his goals. Should the government **force** the other children to behave like hamsters on an educational exercise wheel? I don't think so.
Solution: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education. Let parents, teachers, and principals quietly and privately decide these matters. Get government out of the education business.
You are right! The parents could **ransom** their child from the government school indoctrination buildings.
The parents could **ransom** her by paying a **freedom of conscience tax** by paying extra (in addition to government school taxes) for the religious, political, and cultural privilege of home or private school expenses.
You honestly expect us to believe that your son received an offer to work at a bank at age 15. I was born at night , but not last night.
I was there as an exchange student in the early eighties. You're right: At the time, students finished secondary school by age 14-15. By age 16, they started trade school or university. The problem was, they weren't given a second chance if they didn't do well enough in secondary school. That was the impression I was given, anyway. Whether they went to trade school or university depended upon their performance in secondary school, whereas we Americans could opt for the community college route and transfer to a four-year afterward.
That old English school system may have changed now; I don't know. Today's English schools are having the same problems we're having, if not more so.
I your opinion what percentage of the population is capable of learning and passing algebra?
I am thinking of the many people liberal arts majors in my college who barely passed the most rudimentary required math courses for arts majors. These liberal arts majors are **college** students, and a goodly percentage do go on to earn degrees. If they struggle, then what percentage should be a realistic expectation for the general population?
Realistically, what percentage of the population is even capable of learning algebra?
My 14 year old son gripes a bit about mowing, taking out the garbage, furring out a wall for me, moving rocks, etc. But when I have a lot of work for him, I see a change in his general behavior. He has pride. He carries himself differently and is a calmer, happier young man. He is really frustrated by having to wait to get a "real" job and spends time nagging the neighbors for work. My daughter is also frustrated and has become a full-time volunteer for our FRG to burn off energy and give herself a purpose. She'll start working full-time next summer.
It's a basic human need to feel necessary and useful in this world and when we don't have that, life has no purpose.
Still waiting on you to document this, just like I have been waiting for a month now.
You know what they say, if you can't prove it it must not be true.
You honestly expect us to believe that your son received an offer to work at a bank at age 15. I was born at night , but not last night.
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You are asking me if I am a liar?
Yes, he **did** receive an offer for an entry level management position for a local bank. He **was** 15. The bank management assumed he was older since he was a college student attending a his college’s job fair.
My son declined the offer. When they called our home to offer him an interview, he thanked them but told them he was 15, and that his mom would not be able to drive him to work every day.
I see now. You're saying the high school diploma isn't a reliable enough indicator. I'd like to see private companies offer testing, too. It would give us homeschoolers yet another option.
This very simple exercise will prove to you and other rational Freepers that there are thousands upon thousands of examples of police (with load pistols on the hip) enforcing the government school will.
Algebra? No idea. I learned it at 11. I’d think at least anyone with an average IQ should be able to manage basic algebra. I mean, if you can handle fractions you can handle basic algebra concepts. Algebra is hardly esoteric knowledge. It doesn’t even require a calculator.
That is your personal opinion. It is not a fact.
My oldest niece was inline to be promoted to store manager of the retail shop where she worked, until the home office realized she was only 16 and they could not, by law, place her in that position.
My niece attended public school. She also had her HS diploma 2 weeks after her 16th b'day, a BS by 20 (she took off 2 years to earn money for school) and her master's at 23.
My personal experiences are just as valid as yours.
BTW, we moved from Delaware to Virginia because the schools in Delaware are, for the most part, sub par. Yet my niece seemed to make out quite well, as did her younger sister who is getting married next week.
“As an employer, I would like to see a private company issue a certified transcript that a person was literate, and could speak and write English, to a certain grade level, and abandon having to rely on seeing community college on the resume.”
I would recommend that you consider the link below as the solution to your need. Many states are now using this in their workforce/unemployment offices to validate the skills of potential employees before sending them out for interviews. In my state (OK), the vocational schools are using this to create a Career Readiness Certificate so employers can validate student competence levels in three areas: Reading for Information, Locating Information, and Applied Math.
It is also possible for employers to confirm the skills needed to be successful in particular positions by using the Job Analysis tool. This service may be available to you through the workforce/unemployment office.
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