Posted on 07/01/2008 1:16:51 PM PDT by RedRover
CAMP PENDLETON -- A Marine sniper charged with two counts of manslaughter and two counts of assault in the shooting of four Syrians last year had the authority to shoot suspected insurgents if he deemed they posed a threat, his platoon commander testified Tuesday morning.
Lt. Dominic Corabi, commander of a scout sniper platoon from Camp Pendleton's 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, said Sgt. John "Johnny" Winnick II had that authority when he led a six-man surveillance team on a mission near Lake Tharthar in the Anbar province of Iraq on June 17.
Winnick, 24, a San Diego native and 2002 graduate of Del Mar's Winston High School, is the subject of an investigative hearing taking place at the base to determine if the charges against him should stand.
"They were told to be prepared to engage targets of opportunity," Corabi testified, adding members of sniper teams were routinely taught that a surveillance mission can quickly transition to combat.
Winnick's sniper team was watching a mosque and abandoned store for possible insurgent activity when a series of vehicles stopped at an intersection with men emerging and appearing to plant a roadside bomb, team member Sgt. Alexander Wazenkewitz testified.
Shortly after those vehicles departed, an 18-wheel truck drove up and stopped near the same spot with the driver getting out, crawling under the truck and removing a black bag, Wazenkewitz said. Three other men then climbed out of the cab, he said.
"It looked the guy was laying down an IED," Wazenkewitz said. "It was definitely a threat."
At that point, Wazenkewitz said Winnick fired a shot from his sniper rifle at the truck driver and directed the five men he was leading to "suppress the vehicle," meaning they were to fire at the other men and at the truck to disable it.
Under questioning from Winnick's attorney Gary Myers, Wazenkewitz said he believed what the squad did that day was within the military's rules of engagement.
"If you think the guy is a threat and should be shot, you do it," he said.
Wazenkewitz called Winnick, whose parents and family members sat in the gallery watching the hearing unfold in a small base courtroom, a "great teacher and leader."
The incident took place as the unit was about a month into an Iraqi assignment. It was the squad's first engagement.
Wazenkewitz also testified that Marines had been told the insurgency was moving away from regular explosives to construct roadside bombs and was beginning to use the more portable and less detectable compounds such as ammonium nitrate. The truck they fired on disappeared from the intersection within hours of the shooting and was never searched, Wazenkewitz said.
Capt. Jeffrey King is presiding over the hearing as the investigative officer. When it concludes, he will write a recommendation stating whether he believes there is sufficient evidence to warrant Winnick face trial by court-martial.
The manslaughter charges against him allege that he killed one of the Syrians and killed or directed fire that killed a second man. The assault charges allege he ordered his men to fire at the other two, committing all the acts in violation of the rules of engagement.
Winnick was on his fourth combat assignment when the incident took place.
Winnick's case is the fourth involving local Marines accused of unlawful civilian killings in Iraq. He is expected to make an unsworn statement, meaning whatever he says is not subject to cross-examination by prosecutors.
If ordered to trial and convicted, Winnick could be sentenced to as much as 40 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge.
This is the first report I've seen from today's hearing. There should be a fuller report tonight.
sign up to protect your country but kill someone and we are gonna prosecute you....ya thats the American way anymore. appalling to say the least.
Only because we put up with it.
Based on Lt. Corabi’s testimony, I really don’t understand why this hearing is taking place.
The family has my prayers. I wonder what is the standard? To me, if he was acting in good faith, he is innocent of manslaughter. Unless the prosecution could prove that he knew the Syrians were not planting a bomb, IMO he was totally within the rules of engagement.
This is rediculous.
No nation that ever existed was able to conduct a war under “rules of engagement” like this. It sounds even worse than Viet Nam over there.
Odd that there is no word whether it was in fact an IED planted. Maybe NCT didn’t think that was relevant?
What can the Marine Corp be thinking? How are they get to get men to fight in combat if they risk prison for following orders. Let the Legal Eagles go on some combat patrols and then get their reactions.
This guy deserves our support.
This is in line with the Court granting of habeas corpus to POWs. All the soldiers on the battlefield now are subject to charges of murder or criminal assault and each may have to prove that the persons “damaged” were personally threatening them. Each incident in the campaign is now potentially subject to criminal action. The Court has converted War into police work and lawyer work. Our forces may have to begin lodging formal charges against individual enemy combatants and obtain warrants before they can attempt to “arrest” them. There will need to be as many attorneys on the battlefield as troops because each enemy combatant captured will have to be provided with an attorney.
Am I wrong in assuming these witnesses were called by the prosecution?
If they were I feel exactly as you, why were there any charges brought?
“Let the Legal Eagles go on some combat patrols and then get their reactions.”
Better yet, try these REMFs for treason and have them effing shot.
This is so clearly within his orders.
I have no idea why the government wasted money to have bring this even to an art 32.
It is sheer insanity.
Why not just charge every troop who has ever fired any round in Iraq or Afghanistan?
We can just have everyone read their rights are part of the predeployment briefing. /sarc.
CORRECTION: AS part of...
Why do my fingers do that?!!
Disgusting. Who needs to receive the letters that say we will NOT put up with this bovine excrement anymore?
Based on what's been reported so far, I'd say there is none. I hope this prosecution makes more sense when we've heard about the whole day's testimony.
BTW, I also agree with your tagline--and he can bring the Del-Tones with him!
Uhh... is the judge going to allow evidence regarding if these ..syrians..were terrorists or just on vacation, a religious pilgrimage perhaps, to one of iraq's many "holy" cities? Maybe they were kneeling down to pray./sarc.
Appears that everywhere muhammad(may pigs be upon him) took a dump is a "holy" city.
Couldn't agree more. If anyone wants to leave a message of support for the family, click on the picture link below...
I’m sure they were planting date palms alongside the road.
It takes two teams, two vehicles, a truck, and a black bag.
And they place them right under the road where vehicles travel because date palms like to hitchhike. (That’s how they get dates.)
/sarc
This is a complete head-scratcher, jaz. They sound like defense witnesses but that’s not how these hearings go. What the heck is the prosecution’s case?
Those were my exact thoughts, Red, the prosecution always goes first.
The only thing I can figure is the prosecution wants to go through the formality that Sgt. Winnick and his men did shoot at them but can’t figure why they’d have to.
I’m assuming they didn’t find an IED (maybe because the truck got away) and that the dead Syrians weren’t on an insurgent database.
Maybe the two wounded Syrians told doctors they were innocent and that’s why charges were brought.
In any case, Sgt Winnick may have prevented an IED from being planted. You never get credit for catastrophes you prevent. But to get charged with murder and assault under these circumstances is insane.
Agreed. I have a feeling the Marine Corps is about up to here with this crap. I predict there will be no charges.
Them Syrians shoulda stayed in Syria.
I said:I wonder what is the standard?
You said:Based on what’s been reported so far, I’d say there is none. I hope this prosecution makes more sense when we’ve heard about the whole day’s testimony.
My thought: If there is nothing more to this, I find it disgusting that this soldier is even being investigated.
You said:BTW, I also agree with your tagline—and he can bring the Del-Tones with him
My thought: The Ventures finally made it this year (the 23rd induction ceremony), so there may be some hope. I read that Dick Dale is battling cancer again. He was to have surgery in April. I hope all is well with him. He is one of a kind.
They killed Four Syrians? These Marines should be getting medals.
So that's where the term "Holy Shite" came from.
So according to the report from the accused Marine’s officers, this shooting was well within the rules of engagement. So what’s the beef?
They took a skilled Marine scout sniper off the line less than a month into his tour. They probably restricted his entire squad while they were questioned — losing their services for a significant period. And for what? So that we could show Syria our ‘due dilligence’? That country that was building a NK-Nuke reactor right under our noses (until the Israeli’s took it out). Doesn’t anybody have a backbone anymore?
I wonder how many IED’s got laid successfuly in that sector of Anbar Province because the RCT in that area didn’t have enough observers to cover the ground. How many Humvee’s & their soldier/sailor/Marine drivers got wasted? How many Iraqi civilians got hurt?
This is beyond Stupidity. It’s criminal — the prosecution that is. / Rant OFF
Yet more Marines being punished for performing their duty.
Motives in killing of Iraqi civilians traded at Article 32 hearing
CAMP PENDLETON -- Was Sgt. John Winnick II following the military's rules of engagement when he fatally shot two Iraqi civilians and possibly injured two others last July 17? Or was he a trigger-happy killer who failed to make sure those civilians posed a risk to him and his sniper unit?
The questions were debated Tuesday by prosecutors and Winnick's defense team during an Article 32 hearing at Camp Pendleton. The proceeding will help determine whether Winnick is court-martialed on charges of voluntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and failure to obey orders or regulations.
If convicted, he could be imprisoned for 40 years and receive a dishonorable discharge.
Winnick is a San Diego native who graduated from Winston High School in Del Mar in 2002. He was on his fourth combat tour when the incident that led to the court proceedings took place near Lake Tharthar in the Anbar province of western Iraq.
On that day, he and five other members of a sniper team were monitoring a mosque and an abandoned store for insurgents. They became suspicious when a succession of vehicles stopped on a nearby road and looked like they were planting a roadside bomb, Sgt. Alexander Wazenkewitz, a team member, testified Tuesday.
Awhile after those vehicles left, an 18-wheel truck stopped at almost the same spot and the driver got out to remove a bag under the truck, Wazenkewitz said.
Winnick shot the driver to death with his rifle and ordered his men to disable the truck. In the ensuing moments, Winnick killed another Iraqi civilian and either he or his Marines injured two more. The truck wasn't searched before it was removed from the site.
As the Article 32 hearing continues, witnesses are expected to testify about the complexity of the military's rules of engagement. Those regulations have been interpreted differently by the Marine Corps' legal and intelligence officers, according to their comments in previous cases involving allegedly unlawful killings of Iraqis.
Capt. Jeffrey King is overseeing Winnick's Article 32 session. Later on, he will recommend to Lt. Gen. Samuel Helland, the convening authority in the case, whether Winnick should go to trial.
Winnick is a member of the Camp Pendleton-based 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Division. He was working with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, also based at Camp Pendleton, when the Lake Tharthar incident occurred.
Winnick pre-enlisted in the Marines at age 17 and became a combat veteran at 20.
His battlefield exploits in the 2004 battle of Fallujah, Iraq, caught the eye of author Bing West.
In the book "No True Glory: A Frontline Account of the Battle for Falljuah," Bing described the intensity of the fighting and Winick's actions: "They rushed down to the street. As they moved up the alley, Lance Cpl. John Winnick, a machine-gunner, ran toward (Lt. Jesse) Grapes with a (rocket-propelled grenade) launcher and a bag full of rockets."
"Sir, can I shoot these back at them?" Winnick yelled.
"Do you know how to use that thing?" Grapes asked.
Winnick had never held or fired the launcher during combat, but he convinced Grapes to let him do it then. He fired twice, blowing open a gate and then hitting a fuel drum inside a house as Marines cheered.
"In minutes the fire had spread through the first floor, and the insurgents had fled," Bing wrote.
Winnick's family and friends have create a Web site to support him and seek donations for his legal defense.
Five Marines posted comments on the site, including Wazenkewitz.
"I was at John's side on June 17th and I would have done everything exactly the same. He did nothing wrong," Wazenkewitz wrote. "I have nothing but respect for that man and would take a bullet for him any day."
can the middle finger be used as a trigger finger....
If Perry’s there, too, this is definitely getting more coverage than I expected!
I haven’t seen anything yet that leads me to think there’s a real case here. But that’ll be up to Capt King and Gen Helland.
BTW, I mentioned somewhere else that Capt King is also part of the Chessani defense team. That gives me more confidence that he’ll be impartial and just look at the evidence.
Thanks to you both.
It seems that Perry’s piece is somewhat different than the other two.
Don’t know what to think about the company commander warning snipers that “the Marine Corps eats its young.” Doesn’t seem like a very good way of installing morale in your men, depending on the circumstances and the way it was said.
Glad this is getting the coverage that it is. So far I would say the public should be supporting Sgt. Winnick and his Marines.
That is a sad article, girl. The Co Cdr briefed his men that “the Marine Corps eats its young.” The Lt said he tried to get clarification, because of Haditha, but no one knew or would tell what the proper info was.
The Sgt was told there were bomb planting suspects. He’d seen it before and been awarded for it. He sees it again, opens fire, and then CHARGES the site with his squad. (That above all else proves he was not just shooting people for the heck of it.)
Officers show up to inspect the site and find no bomb.
But, 2 of the dead engaged in this bomb-planting like activity were SYRIANS and not Iraqis.
I’d say that the squad and Winnick had tumbled on a dry run training exercise.
Be that as it may, Sgt Winnick did not violate his orders, his ROE, or his oath.
NO WAY this young man should be in jail for 40 years.
And kudos to his Lt for refusing to give him a bad evaluation. Also, contempt for the officers who ordered the Lt to do so.
It seems after officers determined no IED had been planted, Winnick was relieved of duty, but his platoon commander refused to give him a negative evaluation even though he was ordered to.
Seems the platoon commander. Lt. Dominic Corabi, was trying to be realistic with his Marines telling them to be careful, but when push came to shove, he stood up for them.
That’s exactly what it looks like to me, Girl. Lt. Dominic Corabi is a stand up guy as far as I’m concerned.
Haditha'd, like Nifonged is now a verb.
Planted or not --- doesn't matter.
His stated ROE in his "Force Protection" role -- authorized him to "shoot suspected insurgents if he deemed they posed a threat"...
End of story...
The Marine Corps had ALREADY trained and vetted this young man as a Sniper, with the decision or life or death in HIS hands.
At worse - if they disagree with his judgement, then assign him a different MOS, but you don't try him for murder..
This is bullshit.
It is a sad article. From the AP article (which we can’t post), the area was known for frequent roadside bomb attacks. The truck stopped at the same spot where just days earlier two people had been seen scooping out the area. The radio communications guy, Cpl. Alexander Wazenkewitz, indicated they used force because they felt threatened. He said he didn’t want to die.....that’s why they did it.
Does it get much simpler than that? Sgt. Winnick II had previously been given a meritorious promotion for killing an insurgent planting a roadside bomb. If this one had panned out the same, he’d probably have been given another. Since it wasn’t what he thought it was, he deserves 40 years?
You’ve got to wonder why any Marine lawyer looking at the facts of this case would ever recommend charges that would total 40 years.
At worst, this is a battlefield mistake.
There is no doubt that a sniper team in the field MUST consider itself in contact with the enemy.
Nifonged means to be falsely accused in order to advance someone’s career.
Hadithad means to be falsely charged by Monday morning quarterbacks in CYA mode.
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