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Just had to do another ping this a.m. when I read this...
Posted on 07/16/2008 5:10:08 AM PDT by SJackson
Mexican law enforcement officials are walking into U.S. ports of entry in increasing numbers to seek political asylum, and the flow may soon become a flood as Mexico's battle with the drug cartels intensifies. Our first instinct is to welcome them, but there is more at stake than humanitarian sentiments.
The problem is that if our immigration laws are stretched to grant asylum to law enforcement personnel on the grounds that their own government cannot protect them, any Mexican threatened by these violent criminal gangs can claim the same right of asylum.
U.S. immigration law does not easily accommodate these law enforcement cases because they are fleeing threats from organized crime – the Mexican drug cartels – not political persecution by their government. If our laws are stretched to accept thousands of refugees from drug cartel violence, it will only exacerbate Mexico's problems.
We can sympathize with the Mexican police chief or prosecutor who lands on a cartel hit list because he will not play ball with them. The Mexican federal government seemingly cannot protect him and his family, so he flees to El Paso or Nogales and seeks asylum. The number of such asylum applications more than doubled in the first six months of 2008 compared to the same period in 2007, but very few have been approved. What will happen if we do not accept these asylum applications as a humanitarian gesture? What will happen if we do?
The rising number of asylum seekers from Mexican law enforcement and the professional classes is a new phenomenon, not merely another facet of our open borders fiasco. These people are not swimming the Rio Grande or sneaking across the Sonora desert. They are walking into our border ports of entry from Texas to California and asking for protection. We must respect them for following our laws and doing it the right way. But we must also ask some hard questions before throwing open our gates. Humanitarian concerns must be balanced against other considerations – because the fate of Mexico hangs in that balance.
What happens to Mexico if all the good cops flee to the U.S. or Europe and the only ones left are working hand-in-glove with the criminals? What are the consequences if all the honest judges and prosecutors flee and only dishonest ones are left in charge of the courts? What happens if honest businessmen find it easy to flee to San Diego, Houston or Phoenix and only those who will do the cartels' money laundering are running the nation's trucking companies, farms, and banks?
The unpleasant truth is that this new refugee problem is the sign of a deep crisis not in the Mexican economy but in the Mexican political system itself. Mexico exhibits mounting signs of a "failed state," a political system that cannot satisfy the most basic conditions of civic order such as safety in one’s streets, home, school, and workplace. Failing states begin to hemorrhage people and their assets. The middle class begins to flee – doctors, lawyers, accountants, business owners, teachers, and of course, law enforcement officials, who are the first targets of criminal organizations.
These new "civic disorder refugees" are not like the millions of unemployed or underemployed who leave Mexico to a find a job and a better life. These middle class citizens have jobs – often good jobs by Mexican standards – but they do not have security for themselves or their families. They would much prefer to stay in Mexico but they cannot do so safely, so they flee.
If police chiefs and judges cannot be protected from the cartels, then how can ordinary citizens feel safe? If we open the gates to everyone who has a "credible fear" of the cartels, the Border Patrol will no longer have to worry only about people jumping the fence. Thousands will be waiting in line at one of over 300 ports of entry.
This new "emigration from fear" poses an urgent challenge for Mexico. If Mexico wants to win its battle against the drug cartels, it must begin by reforming its police and criminal justice systems so that honest cops, judges and mayors – and journalists – can do their jobs without undue fear of retaliation. To his credit, President Calderon has begun to tackle this problem.
Military operations against the cartel strongholds are probably necessary, but they can never be a substitute for a functioning criminal justice system. Mexican citizens must be able to trust the local police, and local police must be able to trust their government to protect them from gangster-terrorists.
The United States must not become an automatic escape valve for honest officials threatened by cartel violence. If that happens, Mexico will lose its most valued civil servants and become increasingly a militarized (and polarized) society.
Mexico is not yet a failed state, but if humanitarian sentiment and special interest pleadings in the U.S. block sound immigration policy – as happens all too often in American law and politics – we will hasten that tragic development.
“Mexico is not yet a failed state,”{
Not sure I agree with Tancredo here. Has Mexico ever been anything but a failed state? I guess we’re talking degrees of failure, but successful states provide reasonable opportunity for most all of their citizens, and they certainly don’t have policies designed to export significant portions of their populations.
This is not a good sign. The people who come North (for the most part) want to work. So who is left? And what are the consequences for Mexico? In many ways, Mexican culture has come to glorify the drug lords. Scary stuff.
This isn't a new phenomenon. This is how my father ended up in Del Rio with his two sisters 13 &14. He was all that was left as a 17 year old after the revolution in the 1920's. Groups of men tried to kill or killed the revolutionaries (my grandpa) and the old judges, cops, soldiers and politicians in order to gain control.
The narco-terrorists are just another in a long line of men that realize the rule that "the man with the gun, makes the rules".
Mexico is an agrarian-Marxist revolutionary government that would and will never succeed. Because the political model it uses is communist/socialistic and not based on the rule of law.
We are slowly slipping towards that state and the democrat party is pushing us along.
The cops that want asylum should be given a way of becoming US citizens. I can guarantee that they are brave men and family men. That there sons will probably be made to join the armed forces and that they''ll work their rear ends off in order to get an education. Men that come from situations like that to our country, will worship the freedoms and opportunity that our country will provide.
What we don't need is the parasites that see us as a goody bag to be used up and live off the government nipple.
This is a ping list promoting Immigration Enforcement and Congressional Reform.
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Just had to do another ping this a.m. when I read this...
“Men that come from situations like that to our country, will worship the freedoms and opportunity that our country will provide.”
But who will remain to bring about any sort of improvement in Mexico? What hope is there for ever seeing any improvement?
I don’t think Mexico’s exporting all its problems to the USA is the answer to anything but an increasing burden on the US.
They've achieved all of the above and then some. So yes, it would suffice to say, Messico needs to clean up their act. If not, the United States will continue to pick up the exhorbanant price tag for Messico’s failures.
Oh for the record, MESSico is spelled MESSico for emphasis. Thanks :)
The problem is stated as fractions or % of increase rather than numbers. Was there one, then a doubling to two?
The magnitude is not really adressed and thus there is no true indication of the fact there is a problem.
Good Tom could have been a little more honest.
Two signs of a failed state:
Drug cartel ATTACKED the main police station in Monterrey this year. What does that tell you about the state of chaos there?
Significant percentage of people, especially young people want to immigrate to another country, the United States, because they find no employment or safety in their homeland.
Oh wait, that would be stupid.
Let’s just admit our country is lost and take steps to build a new one.
The ruling class has used “the Gringo's did it” excuse for decades, and the “great unwashed” are starting to figure-out the truth...the Narco-Lords are becoming the defacto government because of the corruption...everything is for sale...this is going to be a big problem in the next year.
I don’t think Mexico’s exporting all its problems to the USA is the answer to anything but an increasing burden on the US.
the same type of people that brought about the change to England when they immigrated, and the Irish and the Italian and the Germans and the Poles and the Chinese and the Japanese and the Korean and the Vietnamese.....yeah, they all "changed: their home countries, right?
you're looking at it the wrong way. Cops and professionals that are brave enough to fight and not be corrupted by the narco-dollar and live with the terror and hope for a better future for their families is what we'll get. The Cubans that came over when that punk Castro took over, were the professional and hard working people that get screwed by the communist/socialist government for "achieving".
Those people bring in new ideas and their kids bring in a work ethic that they see at home. Just like every wave of immigration does to this country.
The key is that they assimilate and that happens in 2 generations. The first generation works as laborers, butchers, carpenters, farm workers
...the second as cops, nurses, secretary, firemen, soldiers so that their kids can go to college and become the doctors, businessmen, lawyers, engineers, accountants, IT specialists, bankers....and then we go on from there.
My grandparents barely spoke English and worked as farm workers, butcher, carpenter, construction... yeah a couple of jobs.
, my parents spoke Spanish and English, worked as a Marine Platoon Sgt. and mom as secretary and then electronic assembly.
I speak Spanish and English, fortunate enough to get GI benefits and work in the health profession.
, my kids speak English and barely understand Spanish...they want to become doctors, actress, film directors, tennis professional, Marines, .....whatever most normal kids want to become.
But what my kids learned from me and me from my parents and my parents from theirs...is work hard, stay in school, show up early, do the job the right way and you're going to do great in this country.
This is what happens when you reject being "judgemental". Everything is relative and subjective. No one is accountable and there are no consequences. So standards evaporate. Otherwise good people stop giving a damn and seek their own escape or make deals to survive. Eventually, the whole system comes crashing down. This is happening here too. The financial crisis is the most recent and visible symptom. Its all bailout and no accountability, either on the part of the irresponsbile lenders or the lendees (many of whom commited fraud to take out loans or had no intention of paying them back in the first place). Not that the latter are being portrayed as victims who need to be helped. Responsible people (as many Freepers are) will end up paying the bill in more ways than is apparent right now. The whole thing makes me sick.
Someone needs to tell these Mexican nationals that they cannot run away from their problems.
They follow them corrupting our nation now.
“the same type of people that brought about the change to England when they immigrated, and the Irish and the Italian and the Germans and the Poles and the Chinese and the Japanese and the Korean and the Vietnamese.....yeah, they all “changed: their home countries, right?”
No, not right at all. Those who left England came to a vast land with a few million inhabitants and had to create and build everything to sustain their lives. They built and created the nation so many have wanted to come to since.
Those who leave a failing nation and come to the US now are making the easiest transition to better times and more opportunity in history.
This nation was created and built, just as other less attractive nations were. And, Mexico has had the example of US success to observe and learn from for two centuries, but still things there only seem to get worse.
Your scenario just doesn’t fly, as much as people from all over the world want to use it to justify their acceptance by the US. This is not the seventeenth or eighteenth centuries, but the twenty-first.
brazen drug-related crimes have been going on since i moved to socal in 1985.
it was a few years after that a drug cartel executed a roman catholic bishop.
meanwhile, nafta—contrary to leftist dogma and even some on this forum—has lifted mexico into the medium tier of societies,
becoming the 14th largest export economy in the world with a gdp of $1.4 trillion.
they’re stuck in an al capone mafia corruption until a stronger middle class develops, one that demands security.
Just another unintended cost of the war on drugs.
Let’s stay in Iraq and end the war on drugs.
So does a significant portion of our own "culture"...
The only good druggie is a dead druggie; let's make a lot of them GOOD!*
*Phrase borrowed from WWII, with the words "krauts" and japs" replaced.
We are in the fast lane to becoming a failed state ourselves. Where shall we run off to? (I’d like to see a few million angry Americans flee to Washington DC with pitchforks, myself)
I like Tancredo, he's one of the good guys, but I disagree with him here. I think we should give Mexican LE protection from the narco terrorists if they ask. These are after all the good guys that stood up to the narco terrorists, and if they remain in Mexico sooner or later they are dead. So we can either have a live good guy in the USA or a dead good guy in Mexico. I'll take the live good guy here anyday.
Perhaps Mexico should get real serious about fighting the narco terrorists. Use speical ops, not cops. Until then, this is all a show to appease the usa.
“Use speical ops, not cops. Until then, this is all a show to appease the usa.”
As things are going, Mexico has or will soon have an ongoing war between whatever reliable government forces they have and the narco gangs and paramilitaries. I guess they are approaching Columbia’s situation.
But how will we know all those cops who might claim grave danger are actually in mortal danger by continuing their jobs? We can’t know. Nothing is scammed more than our refugee programs, well, except maybe the employment of illegals.
Mexico must start dealing with its problems or more and more of it will spill over into the US, and nothing will ever improve there. Give those cops special training and put them into the special ops forces to combat the narco paramilitaries. There are hundreds of millions of other people around the world who can also make a case for being allowed into the US.
Mexico will not solve its present problems without some violence and death and some serious battles between the narcos and the government. Someone will have to fight them.
Sometimes I think everyone would have been a lot better off if we had just conquered and held the whole country during the Mexican-American War.
There was some sentiment to do just that at the time.
This is one of the unintended consequences of the war on drugs.
It seems that people learned little from prohibition. When we made a product illegal, massive profits from illegal distribution caused massive corruption and funded criminal empires that we are still dealing with today.
As long as drugs are illegal, the damage to society will not be contained to those who stupidly choose to use them.
The cure is worse than the disease.
Up until the early 1900’s, laudanum could be purchased over the counter or ordered by mail with no prescription, yet it did not turn the whole damned country into a bunch of addicts.
Take the money out of it and limit the damage to society.
“This is not a good sign. The people who come North (for the most part) want to work. So who is left?”
Oh, please, if you’re a criminal in Mexico the first place you head is the good ol’ USA. Thousands of those ‘who want to work’ are growing dope in your national forests and parks for the Mexican drug cartels. Some of ‘em even have ‘green cards”.
Early signs? LOL! Mexico has been failing since Cortez landed.
I think you nailed it, rbg81.
You had better watch out. Some fearmongering McCainbot will come by and castigate you for letting your principles get in the way of urgent expedience to defeat the boogieman.
ping
You are making a lot of assumptions here. You don’t have to be an honest cop to end up on a cartel hit list. You could just as easily be a dirty cop working for the wrong cartel.
I think one of the big problems in Mexico is the shameful amount of money they pay their law enforcement. It virtually forces them to take bribes just to feed their families
Mexico has a history of elite units being corrupted as in the Zetas and I am not sure how they are going to fix this. This is a deep cultural problem that does not lend its self to simple solutions.
I do give the current president high marks, he seems to be the first one in generations that is not totally corrupt.
If you want on, or off this S. Texas/Mexico ping list, please FReepMail me.
That's a good point, learned from every revolution I can think of and forgotten immediately after.
Revolutions create a vacuum, the revolutionaries and the old guard are busy fighting each other (and often an outside power as well) when "suddenly" a third force steps up, purges both, and has effective control. Key is the third force has not been weakened by an actual revolution and has often been strengthened by it - they grasp the opportunity with reasonably fresh troops and few scruples.
(Tsar and Germany - Mensheviks - Bolsheviks, Warlords and West - KMT - PRC, Weimar - DAP - NSDAP & Brown shirts - Black shirts & Nazis.)
In Mexico's case it's hard to really say who the revolutionaries are or were because someone has been in revolt against someone else (Spain, Mexico city, the new guys in Mexico city, for practical purposes - us) since they realized they had three ethnic groups instead of two. None have been able to actually govern and now the only coherent parties are the cartels.
On the other note:
I fully agree with the idea of taking in police, army, and some administrators as refugees (given the customs surrounding Mexican police, some vetting is in order). And, that we do NOT want to keep the jetsam that no Mexican government is willing to retain and ALL Mexican governments consider a source of unearned income.
Had they not been so corrupt, this mess would never have taken place so as far as I'm concerned, it's their corruption, and they should live there and deal with it.
Mexico is NOTHING like the U.S. . Mexico had the Spanish not the English "rule of law". The United States had men that were God fearing and honorable like George Washington, that shunned the chance to be "king of America"... The US was blessed by great thinkers like Ben Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and the trust that each had in each other to stand by the principles of the Constitution and the belief that there was a "Natural" law. Not laws by man, but laws that EACH and every man should and does live by. A code of conduct.
The Mexicans had royalty and the corruption that aristocratic forms of government hand down. Think of the Kennedy's of Massachusetts being in charge of a country or the Clintons of Arkansas...
If you're saying that all a country has to do is imitate the US and you'll do fine. Not going to happen. The closest recent example was Hong Kong. small but wealthy , built on rule of law and low taxes. Unfortunately, NO ARMY or NAVY to defend itself against China. We in the U.S. had men like my dad, 8 uncles, myself and cousins who joined the various armed forces as did millions of us, to kick the cr#p out of any country that even though about putting a yoke on our freedoms. We fight as free men. No other country or citizens has had what we've got in this great country. That's why men and women die to come here. It's the only place like it on earth my friend.
Your scenario just doesn’t fly, as much as people from all over the world want to use it to justify their acceptance by the US. This is not the seventeenth or eighteenth centuries, but the twenty-first.
I'm sorry that you can't understand the fact that people are unable to change governments or their status at a whim. That they risk a lot by leaving their home country and coming to this great country. Our country is one of the few that allows a boy to aspire to be president, business owner, doctor, general , whatever and not be limited by anything other than the willingness to work harder than the next guy.
you're right about that. Same as the Irish and same as the Italians and same as the Japanese... criminals are criminals. If we find them, then lock them up. If our borders were more secure, we could insure that repeat offenders would get locked up and others get shown the "return to sender" door at the border.
The fact that our own government can't manage to make our borders secure is what has led to this sham called "immigration policy".
The people that like cheap labor love it. The race pimps that want political power love it. The only ones getting hurt are the illegal immigrants and the tax payers having to foot the bill for all these problems in health care and education that are brought on by an flood of illegals. It benefits the government in some ways cause they have a "bogey man" to run against.... they wring their hands about the crime and death that the criminal illegals commit but still refuse to close down the border.... if only we had more tax money to spend on the problem, doncha know.
It's all bullsh#t. Fine each employer $1000 per day for each and everyday an illegal works. Mandatory federal sentence for IRS and Social Security fraud of 5 years for every job obtained using false documents and failure to pay taxes. In addition 5 years for every employee not verified by the computerized i.d. system to verify social security numbers applicable to the OWNERS, corporate board members,supervisors and human resource personnel that allow illegals to work in their business. MANDATORY MINIMUM 5 years. Have two employees... 10 years... three employees 15 years.... make an example of some meat processor or chicken farm owner... nice little 100 year sentence and viola, problem would be solved.
but , nope, our so called conservatives lack the backbone and the libs are just pathetic traitors and love the confusion.
What is to stop the gangs from following their victims into the US and killing them here? The Mexican government is one of the biggest exporters of drugs now. Hogwash that they want to ‘fight’ the drug gangs, they want to wipe them out (using our money of course!) so the Mexican government can keep ALL the profits from the drug trade. I say they lie when they say they want to stop the fighting and slow down the drug trade. The fighting is just to cover up their involvement in the trade.
“I’m sorry that you can’t understand the fact that people are unable to change governments or their status at a whim.”
Do you think the USA became a great nation at a whim? It started around 1607 and has been through many stages over several centuries. But it became a great nation because of the values and freedoms it recognized, and that was not granted on a silver platter, but won during several wars. Everywhere people live in freedom you look back and find revolutions and wars that overthrew or weakened some monarchy or aristocracy. In failed nations such as Mexico those revolutions or wars have not taken place, or the wars were for the wrong causes.
And yes, the example is there of what succeeds, and has been for a couple of centuries, and it is there instantly now with modern communications. You seem to be saying Hispanics are incapable of creating a successful nation, that the old ways cannot be changed, or is it just that the people lack the will or the spirit to overthrow it? Or no leaders have been produced?
But, yes, Mexico and any other nation can change if enough of the people desire it. But I think the truth is that all too many peoples in many cultures accept things as they are and make no effort to improve it. And it is not for the USA to accept all the people from those failed nations who wish to come here. What we are seeing now from many recent arrivals diminishes the USA, and those who have come here with little understanding of why the USA is different, and with some half-witted notion that their nation’s failures are the fault of the US (when really, the success they might enjoy is a spin-off from the US), then those people diminish rather than contribute to the US.
I understand precisely why people want to come here: incredible increase in living standards and opportunity for very little risk or effort compared to what such moves involved historically. But that is no reason at all why anyone should be allowed to come here. Most will have to improve their lives where they are, because the US cannot accept the hundreds of millions who would come if the could.
My friend you are reading me wrong. You don't have a clue about what other countries are like and the ease which with personality based revolutions take place and are defeated.
Mexico has had numerous "leaders".... but look at the way government and rule of law were followed in this country and how bloodshed and assassination are the term limits since Benito Juarez was alive in Mexico.
Mexico has rarely had peaceful turnover of power. Even today, if you think the PRI just "gave up" to the PAN and the new president of Mexico is "clean", you're drinking the kool-aid.
The families that run the country originally are of European ancestry and look down on the browner more "indian" appearing Mexican. The narco-terrorist are just an extension of the Zapatista movement of "land and liberty".. which is an old rip off of basically the Marxist philosophy or agrarian peace love and understanding. They are "fighting the man"... just like the FARC and just like Mr. Chavez.
You got a big mess of brown skinned, spanish speaking people looking for a revolution to happen.
Don't worry, if you're waiting for shooting to happen, it will and it has happened.
The Hispanics you think aren't willing to fight and die for a cause have done it by the truckload. My father might have been down in Central America and I might have even been TDY between the Rio Grande and the Falklands representing our (United States) interests. Trust me, Hispanics like doing the revolution thing a lot. You just don't hear a lot about it, cause it just might not be good for business.
I understand precisely why people want to come here: incredible increase in living standards and opportunity for very little risk or effort compared to what such moves involved historically. But that is no reason at all why anyone should be allowed to come here. Most will have to improve their lives where they are, because the US cannot accept the hundreds of millions who would come if the could.
where did your people hail from? Why didn't they stay where they were from and change their country? My mom's family has been in and around Bexar county before Texas became Texas. At least since the mid to late 1800's, we think the earlier stuff was burned or lost.
You're right, we can't expect hundreds of millions of people to enter our country and survive.
I think you might really be onto something. Remember how the Visigoths ran away from the Huns and then just brought the whole thing down..... maybe that's what's happening now. This huge load of "hispanics" is asking to be given shelter from gangs of Narco-terrorists like the Huns were and the Romans let them stay by the Danube , even using them as soldiers in the Army......... till they couldn't feed them and then the downfall of the Roman Empire.
It's going to be fun watching the liberal democrats try to fight and save themselves, don't you think? Cause I think you're seeing the first signs in Los Angeles between the Hispanic and Black gangs.
In spite of what the media says, and what Obama might think.... most Hispanics will never vote of a mayate.
Yep.
You’ve provided many very interesting and insightful comments in our several exchanges. I have some understanding of Mexico and the nations further south, but it’s strange that the problems in those nations are seldom discussed openly by our politicians. It seems PCness requires that a pretense be maintained that all nations are equal and problems should seldom be pointed out.
I am aware of some of the revolutions that have taken place in Mexico, but not all. But if there’s any hope of real improvement, some day a revolution will have to usher in a recognition of individual rights, rule-of-law and fair elections. Some day, they will have to fight for the right causes, and not just a rearrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic. I have a few questions about things I often hear about Mexico and wonder if you consider them correct or incorrect.
1. Is it true that only thirty or forty extended families own most of the wealth of Mexico?
2. Is it true that it’s taught in the Mexican school system that Mexico’s failures are the fault of the USA?
3. Is it taught that the US southwest was stolen from Mexico and any Mexican has a right to enter the US and live here?
If the wealth is so controlled by a few, it seems there should be some type of land reform. When some measure their holdings in square miles, or hundreds of square miles, and others have owned nothing for generations, and there are few good paying jobs for workers, then that arrangement doesn’t provide much hope for the masses.
It seems the old Spanish aristocracy in Mexico is one of the most racist around, hanging onto their wealth while pushing the mestizos to the north to ease the social and economic problems. And the US economic interests and Democrat party base building interests have cooperated all along, as well various church groups and immigration advocates. There is a squeeze on portions of the US middle class and working class coming from the export of jobs as well as the import of cheap labor, and few Americans are yet looking at that for what it will likely lead to.
And too few are really thinking about what an amnesty of 12 - 20 million, and the 20 to 40 million more they’d be allowed to bring in within a few years, few are really thinking through what that will do to the US. It’s insane.
Of course, the Dems. will bring in as many potential voters as possible, and business interests will try to pressure Republicans to grant amnesty and more and more work visas to do all that work Americans won’t do. But I live in an area where few Hispanics live, and Americans are doing all the work Americans won’t do. We have lawn services offered by white and black citizens, construction work, garbage pick-up, etc., all done by the white and blacks who’ve lived here for generations, as well as a large chicken processing plant. But, if enough illegals move in and undercut the earnings, we’d see whites and blacks leaving those jobs.
LA is a place to watch. It might give those willing to open their eyes some glimpses into the future. And I think those three questions I posed are very relevant, because the attitudes people bring here will play a big role in determining what effect their presence will have on the US in the short and long run.
There’s that quote attributed to many different foreign visitors: “America will prosper until the citizens learn they can vote themselves largess for the federal treasury.”
Well, that’s been learned, and now we can add a new quote: “America will prosper until illegal aliens and foreign interests learns they can influence US elections and policies.”
If you were running for office I would vote for you.
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