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Gun Rights and International Moral Consensus
Canada Free Press ^ | 28 July, 2008 | Jordan J. Ballor

Posted on 07/29/2008 3:47:10 AM PDT by marktwain

In a landmark decision that will impact the future of gun regulation in theUnited States, late last month the Supreme Court struck down a handgun ban in Washington, D.C. In District of Columbia et al. v. Heller (No. 07-290) a slim 5-4 majority found the D.C. ban to violate the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which reads, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state , the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Over the last few years observers of the Supreme Court have noticed a trend among some of the justices to cite the decisions of foreign courts as part of the relevant precedent in deciding the cases before them. This tendency to invoke foreign jurisprudence is becoming more troubling as it becomes clearer that the moral consensus that once united Western nations has almost entirely broken down.

A few years ago a pastor I know, as part of his duties as a representative of the Christian Reformed Church in North America (CRC), took part in an inter-church dialogue with a member of the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands (known as the GKN). The GKN sent what they considered to be a moderate pastor to participate in this conversation about moral issues. In the course of the discussion, the GKN moderate asserted that it was more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion. At this, the CRC representative was only able to respond that their discussion was effectively over.

(Excerpt) Read more at canadafreepress.com ...


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KEYWORDS: abortion; banglist; canada; gun
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An interesting reflection on how far Europe has abandoned classical liberalism to embrace the "ethics" of socialism.

The "liberals" in this country want us to be more like Europe.

1 posted on 07/29/2008 3:47:10 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Who cares how the rest of the world thinks?


2 posted on 07/29/2008 4:25:12 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: P8riot
Who cares how the rest of the world thinks?

That's not even the question.

The questions are:

1) If you talk about "world opinion", what's a legitimate way to measure it?

2) If you talk about the "world community", what's the evidence that such a thing exists?

3) If you say you are a "citizen of the world", why do you think there is (or should be) a political community called "the world", and how do you think such a political community should be governed?

We have gotten very sloppy in our thinking about the above questions, and sloppy thinking leads to sloppy behavior.

The political community known as the United States of America is different from the rest of the world, because it was created using very radical ideas about sovereignty and the sources of political authority. Those ideas are no less radical today than they were in 1776, and the rest of the world does not affirm or agree with them, and never will.

There is no such thing as "the world" in the sense you are using the term. The polyglot mass of oppressed and oppressing Hottentots, Turks, eurotrash and Chinamen that occupy the rest of the planet outside of our blessed Republic do not have a uniform opinion, there is no way to measure whatever opinions they do hold, and if there were, no American should give a moment's thought to it.

"O! ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose not only the tyranny but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the Globe. Asia and Africa hath long expelled her. Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind".

World opinion my ass.

3 posted on 07/29/2008 4:40:21 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When He rolls up His sleeves, He ain't just puttin' on the Ritz)
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To: Jim Noble; marktwain
there is no way to measure whatever opinions they do hold, and if there were, no American should give a moment's thought to it.

You just took the "scenic route" to saying the very same thing marktwain said, which was...

Who cares how the rest of the world thinks?

4 posted on 07/29/2008 5:10:12 AM PDT by DocH (hussein and juan - what kind of choice is THAT? God help us.)
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To: marktwain
In the course of the discussion, the GKN moderate asserted that it was more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion.

Staggers the mind.

5 posted on 07/29/2008 5:26:54 AM PDT by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: P8riot

Hear! Hear!

From the Pilgrims to the Founders, this nation was built on the blood of freedom loving people, tested in the fires of warfare, and set upon a foundation of morality that was never beholden to what had gone before.

To see the US (via the LibTards) slinking toward socialism by way the Multi-Culti PC crowd and the sold-out Lame Stream Media is a sickening sight, indeed.

It’s time to reclaim the country. Our children and grandchildren deserve our best efforts to restore the foundations of the Nation: individual freedom, responsibility for one’s actions, economic freedom, and limited government intrusion into our daily lives.


6 posted on 07/29/2008 5:54:04 AM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion)
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To: DocH

The strongest, best and brightest of Europe escaped that sinkhole and helped create this great nation...and they sure didn’t give a hoot about what Europeans thought.


7 posted on 07/29/2008 6:03:39 AM PDT by coolbreeze (giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teen-age boys.)
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To: marktwain
more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion.

So you never use your gun your whole life but the person killing babies is more moral. They are pastors of Satan not God.

8 posted on 07/29/2008 6:07:32 AM PDT by bmwcyle (If God wanted us to be Socialist, Karl Marx would have been born in America.)
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To: Jim Noble
That's not even the question.

I know, but it's my opinion.

9 posted on 07/29/2008 6:10:30 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: bmwcyle

So true.


10 posted on 07/29/2008 6:16:17 AM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: DocH

Uh, that was me. But I’ll let him say it too if he wants. 8~)


11 posted on 07/29/2008 6:17:39 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
As nations in general across the planet devolve further into apathy, dependency, socialism and cowardice, more and more the United States stands isolated and alone, unique in its view of human liberty.

The fact that cockroaches outnumber human beings 50,000 to one does not make them a superior life form...

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

12 posted on 07/29/2008 6:59:54 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: P8riot
the GKN moderate asserted that it was more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion.

WHAT? Owning an inanimate object is more evil than murdering an innocent human being? Europe IS lost. All the Muslims have to do is tell them that they are taking over.

13 posted on 07/29/2008 7:50:06 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Joe Brower
The fact that cockroaches outnumber human beings 50,000 to one does not make them a superior life form...

An appropriate analogy if I ever heard one.

14 posted on 07/29/2008 8:03:05 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
the GKN moderate asserted that it was more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion.

I must be "evil personified".


15 posted on 07/29/2008 8:05:44 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Jim Noble

Very well stated!

We stand alone in our condition as Free people who (should) refuse to be subject to anything other than God ordained natural laws and rights of mankind.

Anyone who thinks we need to be more like the rest of the world needs to move there, wherever that is.

God Bless & Molon Labe


16 posted on 07/29/2008 10:54:18 AM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret) "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War")
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To: marktwain
The GKN sent what they considered to be a moderate pastor to participate in this conversation about moral issues. In the course of the discussion, the GKN moderate asserted that it was more evil to own a gun than to have an abortion.

So owning a hunk of metal and plastic is more evil than murdering a baby. This is the thought process of a liberal. No wonder they're so screwed up.

17 posted on 07/29/2008 11:05:00 AM PDT by AlaskaErik (I served and protected my country for 31 years. Democrats spent that time trying to destroy it.)
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To: Jim Noble
A similar analytical take on "morality" also produces some interesting results. Here are moral judgments (and I agree with you that "consensus" in this context is meaningless) undertaken by people for whom the source of morality is vague at best, and is certainly not any church inside of whose doors they've never been. What then?

The source of these moral judgments is politics, occasionally masked by political actors dressed up in the vestments of some nominal church or another, but quite as often some secular actor bleating about undefined abstractions such as "fairness" or "justice". If in fact the source of human rights goes no deeper than some international declaration, there is no real source at all.

The upshot of this sourcelessness is that all such "rights" are purely definitional, hence abortion isn't wrong because its victim has been defined as outside the category of human life; hence, as well, firearms are purely instruments of the taking of life and not also of defending it. Such rights are the more passionately declared as they are more and more vague. "Life" here is a moral absolute and a semantic nullity.

The fellow who claimed that firearms possession is more immoral than abortion did so on the basis that he, and not God, was the ultimate arbiter of the definition of "life." Given the latter it's a perfectly coherent and consistent position. But we aren't giving him the latter, or I'm not, anyway.

18 posted on 07/29/2008 11:23:41 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Manly Warrior
It has been my experience that people who say we should be more like the "rest of the world" have not seen very much of it. Other countries dole out small "freedoms" to their citizens as though each were a gift from the State. By contrast, our Constitution does not grant our rights as citizens, but recognizes that they belong to us.
19 posted on 07/29/2008 11:34:44 AM PDT by andy58-in-nh (A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.)
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To: Jim Noble
"World opinion my ass."

Forgot two words? Kiss My???

20 posted on 07/29/2008 12:41:00 PM PDT by litehaus (A memory tooooo long)
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